ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jingsmonty]

Those seats really are Marmite, aren't they? I love them.

Yeah, think so! Must be my lanky long back, I wouldn't mind them so much if they were pitched better, I find the base too flat and the back too upright - it's a seat you sit 'on', rather than sit 'in', if that makes sense! Think the GW HST seats are slightly better pitched than Scotrail 158s, but had a bit of a numb postierior after a trip from Paddington to St Austell a few years ago!

My Wife hates them as well, and she is 'petite', so it's not a height thing!

Best seats in the UK just now? 180 Adelante seats are ok, as are Scotrail 170 seats (shame about all their other deficiencies though...) - personal fave? The EMT HST seats (which are the old IC70 seats from BR days!!).

 

[najaB]

Seems like that'd create a lot of drag and an incredible amount of noise.

It does neither. The front of the train has done all the hard work punching a 'hole' in the air. The proof of this is opening a droplight window at 125mph - you don't get a hurricane in the vestibule.

 

[najaB]

Best seats in the UK just now? ...The EMT HST seats (which are the old IC70 seats from BR days!!).

Proving the saying about opinions... I find them the worst seat in existence.

 

[jingsmonty]

Does the door not sit flush with the outside of the body? Seems like that'd create a lot of drag and an incredible amount of noise.

Believe the new Hitachi IEP has a similar door design (as do the 395 South Eastern units). Hope the doors are mechanically operated as that would be far more reliable than pneumatically operated ones (158 doors are a pain to isolate)..

 

[jingsmonty]

Proving the saying about opinions... I find them the worst seat in existence.

Must be me and I must have a weirdly shaped body!! I just wouldn't mind a good seat design which has a good 'shape' to it, rather than being shaped like a plank of wood...I don't even mind the hard seats on the 185s/350s that TPE use..

 

[edwin_m]

Believe the new Hitachi IEP has a similar door design (as do the 395 South Eastern units). Hope the doors are mechanically operated as that would be far more reliable than pneumatically operated ones (158 doors are a pain to isolate)..

Indeed, although Hitachi have gone for a flush plug door on their 385 units. A potential problem with pocketed sliding doors like the ones pictured is that it's more difficult to see from further down the train if something is trapped in the door, as the opening is recessed into the body. The other possible problem is rattling, notorious on 150s and similar units when passing another train at speed. I believe Hitachi use an inflatable seal to hold the door in place when closed, but I guess it's unlikely these ones would be that sophisticated.

All doors are "mechanically" operated but the mechanics may be powered pneumatically or electrically - I assume you are intending to refer to electric.

There will be some extra aerodynamic resistance loss for a pocketed door compared to a flush one, as any discontinuity creates uneven airflow, but it's likely to be small compared with that created by the gap between the coaches.

 

[380101]

Believe the new Hitachi IEP has a similar door design (as do the 395 South Eastern units). Hope the doors are mechanically operated as that would be far more reliable than pneumatically operated ones (158 doors are a pain to isolate)..

The doors are electrically operated. Door obstruction sensors fitted that make the door re-open if blocked. I think they will be a high quality product as the door system has been chosen to be fitted to XC and the remaining GWR HSTs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Proving the saying about opinions... I find them the worst seat in existence.

I agree, an utterly awful design.

 

[158722]

Railway Herald reporting that four GWR PCs and two sets of Mk3s are to be stood down and go off lease from August 23rd. 43021, 43033, 43132, 43148 and sets LA02 & 03 are quoted. First ones for ScotRail?

 

[380101]

Railway Herald reporting that four GWR PCs and two sets of Mk3s are to be stood down and go off lease from August 23rd. 43021, 43033, 43132, 43148 and sets LA02 & 03 are quoted. First ones for ScotRail?

those power cars are on the list of ones coming to Scotrail. first set officially handed over to Scotrail on 28th August at Laira depot.

 

[Clansman]

Does the door not sit flush with the outside of the body? Seems like that'd create a lot of drag and an incredible amount of noise.

Impossible for it to be flush with sliding doors, as it would have nowhere to slide into without trying to force the body of the carriage to budge, if it was flush. Plug doors would've been flushed however sliding doors are generally a quicker, safer and mechanically easier type to maintain and operate. See below.

Railway Herald reporting that four GWR PCs and two sets of Mk3s are to be stood down and go off lease from August 23rd. 43021, 43033, 43132, 43148 and sets LA02 & 03 are quoted. First ones for ScotRail?

The power cars you've listed are confirmed as part of the group going to ScotRail, can't speak for LA02 & 03 though.

 

[43096]

The power cars you've listed are confirmed as part of the group going to ScotRail, can't speak for LA02 & 03, but I imagine they will be too.

Thank you for that, most helpful!

Any chance of the bottom of the list?! There should be another 24 power cars to add to the list.

 

[Clansman]

Thank you for that, most helpful!

Any chance of the bottom of the list?! There should be another 24 power cars to add to the list.

No problem. Here's the full list below.

 

[43096]

No problem. Here's the full list below.

Thank you again!

 

[Clansman]

Thank you again!

No problem

those power cars are on the list of ones coming to Scotrail. first set officially handed over to Scotrail on 28th August at Laira depot.

In addition to this, it's also confirmed that the HSTs will begin operating between Edinburgh-Aberdeen this coming May.
Once the fleet is in full service, a maximum of 23 sets will be in service at any given time.

 

[theblackwatch]

I understand that although LA02/LA03 and the power cars mentioned are due to be stood down on 23/08, the first set does not officially come off lease until the end of the month.

 

[Clarence Yard]

GWR diagram 49 out of 54 sets and a few spare vehicles each day. Some of the spare vehicles have gone already to form the first GWR GTi set and the 54th set will be officially broken up again to form the second and third GTI sets.

Originally there were going to be two sets handed back in August but the second one has now been reprogrammed for January as Wabtec don't want it yet. The next two are due to go in October, then two in November, then two in December. After the single unit in January, it then resumes two a month to Scotland after that.

The loss of an HST set before the 80x sets enter service isn't ideal and if there is a shortfall in availability, 2 x Turbos are going to get deployed on an LTV HST diagram. Generally speaking, the current level of service requires 3 sets out for L4 maintenance and one set out for L5 maintenance. The 54th set was reformed back into being a traffic set (from just being spare vehicles) to add a bit of resilience.

 

[irish_rail]

No problem. Here's the full list below.

Is this list of power cars in some sort of an order of when they will go or just random? Thanks in advance

 

[Clansman]

Is this list of power cars in some sort of an order of when they will go or just random? Thanks in advance

Just a random order as far as I'm aware, even if the first four on the list are the first four to arrive up here.

 

[jamieintercity]

Just a random order as far as I'm aware, even if the first four on the list are the first four to arrive up here.

When are the first 4 PCs/2 sets due up in Scotland and where will they be based for testing/training?

 

[Clansman]

When are the first 4 PCs/2 sets due up in Scotland and where will they be based for testing/training?

September, based at Haymarket. A few weeks after, they will go down to Doncaster (Mk3s) and Loughborough (Power Cars) for refurbishment.

 

[absolutelymilk]

GWR diagram 49 out of 54 sets and a few spare vehicles each day. Some of the spare vehicles have gone already to form the first GWR GTi set and the 54th set will be officially broken up again to form the second and third GTI sets.

Originally there were going to be two sets handed back in August but the second one has now been reprogrammed for January as Wabtec don't want it yet. The next two are due to go in October, then two in November, then two in December. After the single unit in January, it then resumes two a month to Scotland after that.

The loss of an HST set before the 80x sets enter service isn't ideal and if there is a shortfall in availability, 2 x Turbos are going to get deployed on an LTV HST diagram. Generally speaking, the current level of service requires 3 sets out for L4 maintenance and one set out for L5 maintenance. The 54th set was reformed back into being a traffic set (from just being spare vehicles) to add a bit of resilience.

What's L4 and L5 maintenance? I presume one is minor fixes and another is major refurbishment?

 

[mic505]

I thought the Power Cars are being done at Brush Loughborough.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the list of powercars that has been posted, I notice that 43160 and 43198 (green GWR livery) are not on that list. According to the Abrail website, those 2 are allocated to Old Oak Common depot. A further 10 powercars (5 sets) would be coming from Laira depot, Plymouth.

I was under the impression that the whole lot from Old Oak Common (44 powercars /22 sets) were being transferred to Scotland, as that depot closes down towards the end of 2017.

Could somebody clarify if that is the case or not?

 

[43096]

Regarding the list of powercars that has been posted, I notice that 43160 and 43198 (green GWR livery) are not on that list. According to the Abrail website, those 2 are allocated to Old Oak Common depot. A further 10 powercars (5 sets) would be coming from Laira depot, Plymouth.

I was under the impression that the whole lot from Old Oak Common (44 powercars /22 sets) were being transferred to Scotland, as that depot closes down towards the end of 2017.

Could somebody clarify if that is the case or not?

No. The ScotRail sets are all from the Angel Trains owned fleet - as per the list published. 24 power cars (12 Angel and all 12 First owned) stay with GWR for the 2+4 sets. 43160 is a Porterbrook car and will go off-lease once GWR finish with it and 43198 is First owned, so remains for the 2+4 fleet.

 

[cactustwirly]

Regarding the list of powercars that has been posted, I notice that 43160 and 43198 (green GWR livery) are not on that list. According to the Abrail website, those 2 are allocated to Old Oak Common depot. A further 10 powercars (5 sets) would be coming from Laira depot, Plymouth.

I was under the impression that the whole lot from Old Oak Common (44 powercars /22 sets) were being transferred to Scotland, as that depot closes down towards the end of 2017.

Could somebody clarify if that is the case or not?

No! GWR is not in a position to release that many powercars.
My understanding is that the remaining HST sets will be maintained at North Pole by Hitachi, until there are sufficient 801s available to allow them to be withdrawn.

 

[Clarence Yard]

My understanding is that the remaining HST sets will be maintained at North Pole by Hitachi, until there are sufficient 801s available to allow them to be withdrawn.

Absolutely not - Hitachi are not going to maintain HST sets! OOC is progressively reduced in size between December 2017 and December 2018, the last six months being the 3 road HST shed only. There will be a declining workload throughout this period, catered for by the progressive introduction of the 80x sets into service and some transfer of HST work westwards.

The transfer of power cars to Scotland is being done by painted number, not by depot allocation. Always subject to change but the first two going imminently should be 43021 and 43132 and if you want some GWR haulage by 43033/6 and 43134/48, I wouldn't wait until the middle of October.

p.s. L4 is normal depot maintenance and L5 is scheduled overhaul/major component exchange.

 

[43096]

Always subject to change but the first two going imminently should be 43021 and 43132 and if you want some GWR haulage by 43033/6 and 43134/48, I wouldn't wait until the middle of October.

Probably missed your chance with 43033 as it is currently stopped for F exam at Laira and is not expected to work for GWR again.

 

[IanXC]

Given that some of the GWR retained fleet have reportedly been off for the door interlock control works and returned with the same numbers, are we expected the ScotRail fleet to operate with the same fleet numbers as they currently have? Or can we expect some kind of renumbering?

Also, having looked through the kindly provided list above, it seems that the ScotRail fleet will be a mix from right across the GWR fleet - don't the Landore ones have a different, and inferior alternator or something? Is this not really as much of an issue as had been made out before, or is this equipment to be replaced on refurbishment?

 

[Clansman]

Given that some of the GWR retained fleet have reportedly been off for the door interlock control works and returned with the same numbers, are we expected the ScotRail fleet to operate with the same fleet numbers as they currently have? Or can we expect some kind of renumbering?

AFAIK, there won't be any changes to the numbering on the power cars, however, that doesn't mean to say there won't be any additions or changes to the way they are identified ...

Also, having looked through the kindly provided list above, it seems that the ScotRail fleet will be a mix from right across the GWR fleet - don't the Landore ones have a different, and inferior alternator or something? Is this not really as much of an issue as had been made out before, or is this equipment to be replaced on refurbishment?

The engine and alternators on all power cars are getting an overhaul, so this won't be an issue.