New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[infobleep]

It was always the case that SWT would only bring in delay replay if DfT forced them too, because it hadn't been established when the 2007 franchise was let. AIUI SWT believed that delay repay would cost them more than the charter scheme, so wouldn't renegotiate to bring it in, and it seems DfT let the matter lie. I suspect it would have come in with the direct awards if it had been agreed couple of years.

Aren't GWR in the same position, i.e. they either have not, or have only just started delay repay?

Whenever the first delay repay scheme was announced was, I remember people saying that it would take a heck of a long time to get it rolled out across every TOC, which definitely appears to have been the case...

Incidentally one of the SWT managers said that they were looking at whether it could be brought in. Obviously they looked at it and decided no.

I wonder how much it will cost SWR vers had they been able to go with the charter scheme?

 

[swt_passenger]

What might be the problem if they did it now? People thinking they are no good as an operator? The recorded announcements have changed.

As discussed a while ago, they'll want to do it at Waterloo station, rather than some random non-London station elsewhere on their network, and when it doesn't have a background of a NR building site, and there is space in the timetable to takeover a platform to do it in.

Waterloo will potentially still be a bit of a work in progress the first week after the bank holiday, especially if there are any delays, so I think they probably are wise to wait.

(You may remember there were a load of posts a few months back suggesting other places it could be done, such as Bournemouth or Salisbury or similar...)

 

[infobleep]

They were quick to put their brand on Wimbledon depot [emoji38] maybe due to the visibility from all mainline trains?



Well, at the station I work at (travelcard zone 4), the gateline is to be staffed in the off-peak from tomorrow.

That's one commitment already? [emoji14]

I am surprised. I'd have thought it would have been staffed off peak anyway due to the works.

 

[infobleep]

As discussed a while ago, they'll want to do it at Waterloo station, rather than some random non-London station elsewhere on their network, and when it doesn't have a background of a NR building site, and there is space in the timetable to takeover a platform to do it in.

Waterloo will potentially still be a bit of a work in progress the first week after the bank holiday, especially if there are any delays, so I think they probably are wise to wait.

(You may remember there were a load of posts a few months back suggesting other places it could be done, such as Bournemouth or Salisbury or similar...)

I don't actually remember that but I'm sure that was the case. However I was actually tall in terms of branding the trains rather than the launch at Waterloo.

However if all they did to those Northern train was put a black mark over some name ans nothing else then I guess not much point.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder how much it will cost SWR vers had they been able to go with the charter scheme?

I found some FOI stuff a couple of years back, and there were redacted letters suggesting some TOCs were saving money by using delay repay, because many people did not bother to claim. Wouldn't want to try and find it all again though...

 

[cjmillsnun]

As far is I'm concerned, this makes me happy. Cannot believe SWT didn't have delay repay in 2017.

I know lots of people are Mourning SWT quite openly, but I'm really looking forward to seeing what SWR can do.

SWT would've got Delay Repay if SSWT had won the franchise.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't actually remember that but I'm sure that was the case. However I was actually tall in terms of branding the trains rather than the launch at Waterloo.

In that case if they do want to ceremonially 'launch' a fully liveried and branded train on the day then that would be good enough reason not to do it now. But as posted somewhere else it seems a 455 has already had the TOC name applied...

 

[infobleep]

Here are photos of some more posters at Guildford that haven't been removed yet. One is about the works, which I wouldn't expect to be changed. One is the station layout, which will eventually get changed and other about crossing the bridge and needing a pass to do so. Be interesting to see if that has any wording changes or just a logo change on a fresh print. The bridge wasn't manned as I passed through of course. That will change I'm sure.

I could also get works timetables in South West Trains brand but I wouldn't be expecting those to be replaced at all. I wouldn't mind the new timetables, especially the ones with the mistake.

I wonder if they will amend any of the opening and closing times of party open subways or exits? E. G. The subway at London Waterloo and the side access for the Farnham Road car park at Guildford. There must be other part time entrances and exits. I can't imagine any other part time subways though.

 

[Andyh82]

I don't actually remember that but I'm sure that was the case. However I was actually tall in terms of branding the trains rather than the launch at Waterloo.

However if all they did to those Northern train was put a black mark over some name ans nothing else then I guess not much point.

Rebranding is in two parts though, launching the new brand, but also removing the old.

The point I was making about Northern was that it was made out as if it was a legal requirement to remove the old brand from everything before the end of the franchise, presumably because the logo is owned by the previous operator and the new one isn't allowed to use it. That's why we up here have ended up with an unbranded railway for more than a year.

I'm surprised they've changed the depot sign, usually that's the last thing to be done, I'm sure many were put up 15 years ago and just say the name of the depot with branding from the TOC at the time blanked out.

 

[infobleep]

I wonder if anyone got to keep the depot sign, e. g. Any staff working there or whether it had to be scraped because that's what must happen.

I'd like to think it was rescued and kept by someone. Maybe it could go to a railway museum if no individual could have it or wanted it.

 

[greaterwest]

I wonder if anyone got to keep the depot sign, e. g. Any staff working there or whether it had to be scraped because that's what must happen.

I'd like to think it was rescued and kept by someone. Maybe it could go to a railway museum if no individual could have it or wanted it.

It'll have been vinyled over. The physical sign is almost certainly still the same one.

 

[swt_passenger]

They hadn't done the large sign on the side of Northam depot yet (at least when I passed this morning), but that possibly belongs to Siemens - who might want big bucks...

 

[Damo1977]

It'll have been vinyled over. The physical sign is almost certainly still the same one.

From the passing train it almost looked like a vinyl banner over the top of the original. I may be wrong though.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

but that possibly belongs to Siemens - who might want big bucks...

Why would they want big bucks? If there's a SWTs logo on the side of the building it'll have to go as the trademark for SWTs is probably owned by Stagecoach

 

[swt_passenger]

Why would they want big bucks? If there's a SWTs logo on the side of the building it'll have to go as the trademark for SWTs is probably owned by Stagecoach

Who owns that building though?

Surprisingly though, DfT actually own the trademarked colours and lettering style of "South West Trains":

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00002165215

This latter point might explain why it isn't being rapidly removed from the trains after all the discussions so far...

 

[Hadders]

It's quite fascinating to look into this a little further. Click on the 'names and addresses' tab and you can view other trademarks owned by the Secretary of State. There are 141 of them including:

SWT - registered in 1994
Pacer - registered 1986!!!!!
Great Eastern - registered 1994
Anglia - registered 1994
Pullman - registered 1934

A registered name that was in use by BR passed to the Secretary of State upon privitisation. SWT and South West Trains would've been registered by British Rail in shadow running days (if not earlier - 'Cross Country' was registered in 1936!)

I believe the SoS will license a trademark s/he owns to an appropriate rail operator and this is what happened with South West Trains - it was simply licensed to Stagecoach by the SoS. Therefore it'll be for the SoS to decide whether s/he is happy for FirstMTR to use the trademark and explains why no de-branding has taken place.

 

[James H]

On a Waterloo to Weymouth train now.

When leaving Waterloo the guard welcomed us on board "this South West Trains service".

The guard who took over at Southampton has been referring to South Western Railway in his announcements.

 

[LowLevel]

I would imagine the staff couldn't care less.

You have to work on the railway to understand the total divorce (with the possible exception of Virgin) of the front line staff from the corporation owning the franchise - they're effectively franchise assets themselves.

I understand nothing of, and have little to do with, the parent company and such of my franchise - I just take trains from A to B. It's overall performance and indeed internal affairs rarely trouble me.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It's quite fascinating to look into this a little further. Click on the 'names and addresses' tab and you can view other trademarks owned by the Secretary of State. There are 141 of them including:

SWT - registered in 1994
Pacer - registered 1986!!!!!
Great Eastern - registered 1994
Anglia - registered 1994
Pullman - registered 1934

A registered name that was in use by BR passed to the Secretary of State upon privitisation. SWT and South West Trains would've been registered by British Rail in shadow running days (if not earlier - 'Cross Country' was registered in 1936!)

I believe the SoS will license a trademark s/he owns to an appropriate rail operator and this is what happened with South West Trains - it was simply licensed to Stagecoach by the SoS. Therefore it'll be for the SoS to decide whether s/he is happy for FirstMTR to use the trademark and explains why no de-branding has taken place.

So in theory could First/MTR have kept all the existing branding, liveries, etc?

 

[cjmillsnun]

I would imagine the staff couldn't care less.

You have to work on the railway to understand the total divorce (with the possible exception of Virgin) of the front line staff from the corporation owning the franchise - they're effectively franchise assets themselves.

I understand nothing of, and have little to do with, the parent company and such of my franchise - I just take trains from A to B. It's overall performance and indeed internal affairs rarely trouble me.

I can imagine quite the opposite in the case of SWT/SWR. This is the first time the franchise has changed hands since privatisation. For operators in TSGN or Northern, I can imagine they have become detached as they have gone through this a few times now.

 

[cjmillsnun]

So in theory could First/MTR have kept all the existing branding, liveries, etc?

They could keep the name, and the branding. The liveries are very much Stagecoach owned.

Image from srpublicity.co.uk

 

[infobleep]

Nice cheerful look back at South West Trains and a cheerful look ahead. Well what more could you expect from a local paper.

Wonder when the article was written and why they couldn't be bothered to look up and see if the train did arrive on time or not.

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/farewell-south-west-trains-you-13498954

Farewell, South West Trains - you probably won't be missed

Looking back on 21 years of delays, cancellations and complaints... because we all love a whinge!

BYCHRISTOPHER MCKEON

05:00, 20 AUG 2017

The last*South West Trains*service arrived at Surbiton from*London Waterloo*at 2.15am on Sunday (August 20) - assuming it wasn't cancelled or late.

Few will mourn its passing. A Facebook page called "I hate South West Trains" has 1,000 likes, a group called "South West Trains enthusiasts" has only 33.

From the moment it took over the south-western rail network on February 4 1996, when the 05.10 from Twickenham to Waterloo chugged into history as the first privatised train service in Britain for nearly 50 years, SWT has attracted criticism from just about every quarter.

In its first year of operation, it racked up*500 complaints a week*and cancelled hundreds of services after deciding to sack 10% of its drivers in early 1997.

In 1999, it was fined £3.6m for late and cancelled trains, and then a record £3.8m a year later.

Somehow it clung on to get its franchise renewed not once, but twice. Even more incredibly, it was named Passenger Train Operator of the Year in 2011. No, really.

Admittedly,*around 90% of its trains now run "on time", but 3% of its services are routinely*cancelled or over 30 minutes late, and the definition of on time includes being up to five minutes late.

That definition probably isn't good enough for your boss, and it shouldn't be good enough for a train operator.

That isn't to say it has been the worst train operator in the country. Hull Trains, for instance, cancels trains at twice the rate SWT has, so on the bright side at least we're not in Hull.

But it's all over now. Maybe.

The franchise's new operator, South Western Railway, has promised a new fleet of trains, more seats, shorter journeys and more Sunday services, although these changes won't be in place until at least 2018, meaning we will be stuck with the old SWT service for a while yet.

Also on the bright side, one of the companies running the new franchise, MTR, is in charge of the Hong Kong metro, which carries 2.6m passengers every day. SWT carries only 500,000 per day, so this should be a doddle.

But there are clouds on the horizon in the shape of FirstGroup, the major partner in South Western Railway.

They already run the Great Western service, which is decidedly not "great". Even South West Trains routinely outperforms it in terms of punctuality.

Indeed, Great Western were supposed to operate the first privatised train service back in February 1996 - the 1.50 from Fishguard to Paddington - but could only muster a replacement bus service due to engineering works, allowing SWT to get there first.

There's also the small matter of the RMT Union, which has been frustrated by the new franchise's unwillingness to guarantee it won't try to get rid of guards on its services.

So we could be getting a faster, more efficient, more spacious service.

But on the other hand, we could be headed for more delays, strikes and replacement bus services.

And the*Waterloo upgrade*still has another week to run.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Sadly that's how SWT will be remembered. Mainly because the people who are the majority of SWT's customers were on there not because they want to be, but because they have to be to get to work.

SWR won't be much better (if they're better at all), and they'll get moaned at just as much...

 

[Hadders]

So in theory could First/MTR have kept all the existing branding, liveries, etc?

That's my understanding, as long as the SoS is happy for FirstMTR to use them (which he would be).

As noted above the liveries aren't registered to the SoS.

Among the 141 trademarks owned by the SoS are the Inter-City 'Swallow', the 'Double-Arrows', Regional Railways livery and name, the Sprinter logo, Network SouthEast 'stripes', 'Highland Chieftain', 'Northern Lights', 'WAGN', 'Midland Main Line' to name but a few...

 

[bb21]

Nice cheerful look back at South West Trains and a cheerful look ahead. Well what more could you expect from a local paper.

Wonder when the article was written and why they couldn't be bothered to look up and see if the train did arrive on time or not.

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/farewell-south-west-trains-you-13498954

That website have one of the biggest bunch of whingers I have ever seen, so that article is hardly surprising. :roll:

They make the Daily Hate Mail look like The Grauniad, so hardly likely to contain anything meaningful or write anything sensible.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

So in theory could First/MTR have kept all the existing branding, liveries, etc?

Strangely, Stagecoach actually sold the 'South West Trains' brand to the Dft some time ago. So SWT is technically not a Stagecoach brand and so yes, First/MTR could use if they do so wish.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

That website have one of the biggest bunch of whingers I have ever seen, so that article is hardly surprising. :roll:

They make the Daily Hate Mail look like The Grauniad, so hardly likely to contain anything meaningful or write anything sensible.

Did you find the guy who you spoke to on the last SWT service on this forum? I could have imagined going on that train last night, "Are you bb21?" Probably would have got some puzzled faces.

 

[jon0844]

Nice cheerful look back at South West Trains and a cheerful look ahead. Well what more could you expect from a local paper.

Wonder when the article was written and why they couldn't be bothered to look up and see if the train did arrive on time or not.

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/farewell-south-west-trains-you-13498954

Few will mourn its passing. A Facebook page called "I hate South West Trains" has 1,000 likes, a group called "South West Trains enthusiasts" has only 33.

So SWT only had 1033 rail users then?!

 

[XCTurbostar]

It's always the same, as soon as a new name takes over a franchise, the previous is always looks at like it was a knight in shining armour or the pinacle of franchising excellence. But, in reality, it wasn't much better than the current. An example of this is First Capital Connect and Thameslink or First ScotRail and Abellio ScotRail.

Thanks,
Ross

 

[infobleep]

So SWT only had 1033 rail users then?!

Didn't you know, the upgrade works are so they can carry 1034 rail users in the future!