Guard using a green flag to signal to the driver

[nuts & bolts]

At stations with guarded operation and RA indicators, for example Euston, the guard doesn't use the buzzer but instead waves the green flag to the platform staff who operate the RA indicator. The slightly odd side of this is that the green flag is given when the staff door is still open so the train is not ready to depart.

In this scenario, the guard, by way of green flag/lamp shown is confirming door Interlock enabled?

 

[BestWestern]

The Guard is confirming that 'station duties are complete' and the train is ready to proceed. So, in brief, yes!

 

[nuts & bolts]

The Guard is confirming that 'station duties are complete' and the train is ready to proceed. So, in brief, yes!

Guard is confirming "Train Safety. Check"!
Station Work Complete" has already elapsed.

 

[tsr]

59s....? With 377s, when did that happen?!

My bad... it was a couple of 57s.

 

[tsr]

Guard is confirming "Train Safety. Check"!
Station Work Complete" has already elapsed.

Not really. By waving the green flag, the guard is providing a ready-to-start signal, to be relayed by platform staff to the driver. The train safety check must be done before the platform staff (in this location) give the second "tip" (signal, usually by baton) to the guard, which is what said tip indicates. The guard must perform their own safety check, so far as they can see, and when they are in agreement with the platform staff, they acknowledge the tip.

At this point, one final check is done to ensure the platform starter signal (as applicable) is showing a proceed aspect and the correct route, and if local instructions say the local door does not need closing, the ready-to-start signal is given.

The use of RA is good because it provides one final safeguard against anyone giving a ready-to-start signal against a red signal. Usually the RA indicator is interlocked so it will only indicate with a proceed aspect of some sort.

 

[Crossover]

I have seen a VTEC HST desptched from Doncaster (I think it was, it may have been Grantham) on green flag due to the bell system not working

 

[Mugby]

The baton has no significance to a driver does it?

I though it was purely for communication between platform staff and guards?

 

[Sprinter153]

I travelled on my usual North Downs line train this morning and it seemed that the buzzer system had failed, as the guard was using a green flag when leaving stations - nostalgic!.

Of course, due to the lack of energised rear cab door controls on a Guard-operated Turbo (in the East region at least) the Guard also uses a handsignal, or white lamp in darkness, to instruct the driver to close the doors, prior to using the green flag or lamp.

 

[BMIFlyer]

68s don't *YET* but I believe that may be part of the door control mods they're getting.

The class 68s with the new cab layout for TPE have a buzzer fitted as they have door controls in the cab. Only 3 locos in the pool at the moment with 2 modified with the new cab door controls.

 

[ComUtoR]

The baton has no significance to a driver does it?

I though it was purely for communication between platform staff and guards?

It's given to a Driver to tell them to close the doors when dispatched by staff. Bat and Flag is regularly used for DOO.

 

[brick60000]

68s don't *YET* but I believe that may be part of the door control mods they're getting.

How does this work for the dispatch of the silver trains? What method is employed there out of interest?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Red and green flags are a required bit of kit and not having them makes you not fit for work. It's very rare but I've used flags a couple of times.

I understood that a green flag and possibly a red flag, lamp and whistle were part of the Guards/Conductors case/bag which they get when they sign on for duty.

Are yellow flags (and only ever used) only mandatory equipment for NR staff who might do hand signalling duties?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, due to the lack of energised rear cab door controls on a Guard-operated Turbo (in the East region at least) the Guard also uses a handsignal, or white lamp in darkness, to instruct the driver to close the doors, prior to using the green flag or lamp.

Similar I guess to the Voyager method of operation where 1-2 is given to get the driver to close followed by 2 to depart. I've long wondered why that odd method of operation was chosen, with only signal buzzers and local door controls for the guard.

 

[BestWestern]

Of course, due to the lack of energised rear cab door controls on a Guard-operated Turbo (in the East region at least) the Guard also uses a handsignal, or white lamp in darkness, to instruct the driver to close the doors, prior to using the green flag or lamp.

Only if the buzzer fails, though. Ordinarily it's "ten bells'.

 

[BestWestern]

The class 68s with the new cab layout for TPE have a buzzer fitted as they have door controls in the cab. Only 3 locos in the pool at the moment with 2 modified with the new cab door controls.

Are they intending to go for the Driver operating the doors then?

 

[neilb62]

Didn't the WCML sets have driver-guard communication even before the advent of the DVTs?

They did, but its use was forbidden even with the coming of DVT's. Our (VTWC) Tm's still use flags daily as the last 'tip' between themselves and platform staff, 390's and 221's have bell-buzzer of course.

 

[GW43125]

How does this work for the dispatch of the silver trains? What method is employed there out of interest?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

I believe it's green flag from the guard but I've never paid that much attention

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Mcr Piccadilly and Mcr Victoria are both Green Flag despatch. TStaff who do not follow the correct procedure can find themselves in trouble quite easily.

 

[tsr]

Are yellow flags (and only ever used) only mandatory equipment for NR staff who might do hand signalling duties?

They'll need them, as will contractors who might be involved, etc. Possibly also some shunters in various areas. Not sure how it works for routes where the guard is also the signaller (eg. Looe branch).

 

[craigybagel]

Only tends to be some Northern services which use flags; there's normally a (TPE) dispatcher on the platform with a black/white baton

All trains on all platforms at Piccadilly at all times are Green Flag - RA indicators. As pointed out by my fellow guard here....

Mcr Piccadilly and Mcr Victoria are both Green Flag despatch. TStaff who do not follow the correct procedure can find themselves in trouble quite easily.

It is something that is monitored - if you ever see a smartly dressed person standing on the balcony where the restaurants are watching a train dispatch, that may be why

Birmingham New Street is the same, except that instead of green flag it's green lamp.

How does this work for the dispatch of the silver trains? What method is employed there out of interest?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

The guard was using the buzzer last time I travelled on them.

Both of ATW's loco hauled sets use green flag/lamp at all times - guards are instructed never to use the buzzers.

 

[district]

On our network we use a variety of dispatch methods:

In DOO areas with no CD/RA we use a white bat to the driver to indicate station work complete & that it is safe to close the doors and then a green flag held steady to indicate the train safety check is complete and it is safe to move off. Where CD/RA is fitted the white bat is replaced with the CD indicator and the RA replaces the green flag.

In guard worked areas we use the white bat to give the first station work complete signal - this is given to the guard who will then close all doors except his local door. Then we use the white bat again - this is NOT the train safety check as the guard still has his local door open - but a second station work complete. The guard then gives 2 bells to the driver which is the train safety check complete and gives the driver permission to take power and move off.

Of course the dispatcher, guard and driver all check the signal at several stages during the dispatch procedure.

On the high speed the trains are completely DOO and we do not use CD/RA - except at St Pancras. At St Pancras they use CD/RA at all times and during peaks a second dispatcher is present with a white bat. The second dispatcher does the station work complete signal - twice (as guard worked trains above) but gives the 'tip' to the person in charge of dispatch who then operates CD/RA.

 

[Deepgreen]

Of course, due to the lack of energised rear cab door controls on a Guard-operated Turbo (in the East region at least) the Guard also uses a handsignal, or white lamp in darkness, to instruct the driver to close the doors, prior to using the green flag or lamp.

Absolutely - it was just the first time in almost daily use of the NDL in five years that I have witnessed flag use so I thought it was worth noting. No offence was intended.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Are they intending to go for the Driver operating the doors then?

On all the new TPE fleets the driver will release and the guard will close the doors, subject to this being agreed by all parties.

I have added a photo of the TPE version class 68 cab which has door controls, a forward facing cctv camera and a passenger info system interface fitted.

The cab layout on the TPE class 68 fleet is different to the cab of a normal class 68.

 

[lincolnshire]

Don,t know if they still do it on Southern area but it always amused me when going to Brighton on a Thameslink service at some station you would get a Southern staff member standing next to the drivers cab and when it was right away for the train to go they would fish out of there pocket a green flag about the size of a large handkerchief and show it to the driver. No waving it or raiseing it just held in hand as if they had just found it in there pocket.

Not very high tech in the this day and age.

 

[tsr]

In guard worked areas we use the white bat to give the first station work complete signal - this is given to the guard who will then close all doors except his local door. Then we use the white bat again - this is NOT the train safety check as the guard still has his local door open - but a second station work complete. The guard then gives 2 bells to the driver which is the train safety check complete and gives the driver permission to take power and move off.

I'm sorry, but this is just not correct (and yes, I am trained and competent on train dispatch per the RSSB Rule Book).

To quote from the Rule Book, Module SS1, which will not differ significantly on this matter when superseded in December:

Platform Staff:
When the doors are closed, you must carry out the ‘train safety
check’ and if it is safe for the train to start, give the ‘train safety
check complete’ signal to the PIC of platform.

PIC:
When you receive the ‘train safety check complete’ signal, you
must then give the ‘train safety check complete’ signal to the
guard.

Guard:
When you receive the ‘train safety check complete’ signal you
must then:
• close the local door
• where appropriate, check the door interlock light is illuminated
• give the ‘ready-to-start’ signal to the driver, or if the signal is to
be relayed to the driver, give the ‘ready-to-start’ signal to the
PIC of platform
• stay at the door controls until the train has passed clear of the
platform.

https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-SS1 Iss 4.pdf


The two bells given, or indeed the green handsignal, is a ready-to-start signal. It is emphatically not the train safety check complete signal.

The train safety check complete signal is given to the guard when they have only their local door open.

The appropriate method to deliver the train safety check complete signal is usually a second show of the white bat (or white light, in poor visibility, falling snow, fog or darkness hours), though it can also be any other clearly understood signal, if in line with the local instructions.

 

[Harbouring]

Don,t know if they still do it on Southern area but it always amused me when going to Brighton on a Thameslink service at some station you would get a Southern staff member standing next to the drivers cab and when it was right away for the train to go they would fish out of there pocket a green flag about the size of a large handkerchief and show it to the driver. No waving it or raiseing it just held in hand as if they had just found it in there pocket.

Not very high tech in the this day and age.

Just came through Southampton Central and saw the platform staff dispatch the Southern to Littlehampton. He had a little torch with a green light and didn't even show it to the driver, just sort of waved it about at the front of the train right next to the divers cab.

 

[district]

I'm sorry, but this is just not correct (and yes, I am trained and competent on train dispatch per the RSSB Rule Book).

To quote from the Rule Book, Module SS1, which will not differ significantly on this matter when superseded in December:



https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-SS1 Iss 4.pdf


The two bells given, or indeed the green handsignal, is a ready-to-start signal. It is emphatically not the train safety check complete signal.

The train safety check complete signal is given to the guard when they have only their local door open.

The appropriate method to deliver the train safety check complete signal is usually a second show of the white bat (or white light, in poor visibility, falling snow, fog or darkness hours), though it can also be any other clearly understood signal, if in line with the local instructions.

From reading the rulebook myself you are correct, my apologies. This is directly in contrast to the training I was given so I'm going to bring it up with operations.

 

[jon0844]

GTR has recently reminded stations to use white bat/green flag in daylight hours and white light/green light in hours of darkness.

I believe many dispatchers had been using the illuminated bats at all times.

 

[trainmania100]

Dispatchers at Brighton also use green flags

 

[CC 72100]

I believe many dispatchers had been using the illuminated bats at all times.

Some stations love a good illuminated bat when a clean white one would suffice. In good light the plain white is easier to see then the illuminated one!