Manchester Trams refuse to accept round £1 coins.

[Joe Paxton]

It will soon, with the exception of "transit mode". Precisely what that is I'm not quite clear (i.e. does a TVM count?)

As Clip suggests, no a TVM is not a transit mode application - rather, a TVM is the same as any other self-service vending machine.

 

[island]

To return to the original point, I’m not able to find anything saying the Metrolink decision not to accept round £1 coins is in any way illegal or that a theoretical passenger possessed of no cards, no notes, and only enough in coins if round £1 coins are counted would be exempt from being issued a Standard Fare. Legal tender rules do not come into play for purchase of goods or services in advance of their consumption.

In the most unlikely event that this becomes an issue, the passenger concerned would be best advised to use the Help Point to say that the TVM was not accepting their money, and would potentially be issued an authority number to travel.

On contactless, the Visa card scheme will be requiring online authorisation for all contactless transactions from later this year, the transit type 2 and 3 model (i.e. TfL transactions) excepted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As Clip suggests, no a TVM is not a transit mode application - rather, a TVM is the same as any other self-service vending machine.

That was my expectation as well. How about a bus ticket machine in "state your destination" mode?

 

[Joe Paxton]

That was my expectation as well. How about a bus ticket machine in "state your destination" mode?

UIVMM that's still 'transit mode'.

 

[MikeWh]

That was my expectation as well. How about a bus ticket machine in "state your destination" mode?

UIVMM that's still 'transit mode'.

If that results in a known fare being charged at that point then it may not be transit mode, at least not in the same way that TfL work. The point about TfL's implementation is that touches during the day do not make a charge. The daily charge is generated by the back office at the end of the day. It should also be noted that TfL's transit mode is already authorised, just not while the first touch waits. If authorisation fails then the card is blacklisted. At that point, you'll be let out of a station if you are in, but you won't be able to start any new journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone know why mandatory authorisation is being introduced? Traditionally authorisation was at retailer risk.

 

[najaB]

Does anyone know why mandatory authorisation is being introduced? Traditionally authorisation was at retailer risk.

That depends on how far back your definition of 'traditionally' goes - pre or liability shift?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That depends on how far back your definition of 'traditionally' goes - pre or liability shift?

I thought if the retailer did not carry out an online authorisation the transaction had been at the retailer's risk for a long time.

 

[Hadders]

I thought if the retailer did not carry out an online authorisation the transaction had been at the retailer's risk for a long time.

Unless they used chip and pin, I believe. Although things have probably moved on.

 

[rmt4ever]

It's high time that we moved far more of our transactions towards contactless card anyway; then we wouldn't have this issue; nor would we have the expense and security considerations of handling tons of cash. On trams, buses, at swimming pools, car parks - the whole nine yards.

You can't force people. I don't like using card and refuse contactless. 98% of my day to day transactions, say lunch in Tescos, pint in my local, new top in a store, is cash cash cash

 

[AlterEgo]

You can't force people. I don't like using card and refuse contactless. 98% of my day to day transactions, say lunch in Tescos, pint in my local, new top in a store, is cash cash cash

You can force people to use cards.

 

[rmt4ever]

You can force people to use cards.

Under duress

 

[BestWestern]

Regardless of the legalities, it is pretty damn poor customer service!

What is the actual real reason for them not being accepted until they are actually phased out?

I don't believe the machines can't accept both at once (as other machines including NR ticket machines are fine on that front) so the only thing I can think of is that it is penny pinching in that instead of having to make two separate changes (one now to allow the new pounds and then one in a few months time to disallow the old pounds) they have combined the changes into one.

At a guess, the machines have probably been modified to prevent acceptance of the old currency ahead of the deadline; perhaps because there is probably a massive looming demand for vending machine modifications just over the horizon, and perhaps in order to prevent huge swathes of old coins appearing in TVMs as the population of Manchester seeks to get rid of them in their millions as the deadline approaches!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can't force people. I don't like using card and refuse contactless. 98% of my day to day transactions, say lunch in Tescos, pint in my local, new top in a store, is cash cash cash

Well, you can. Ever bought a Ryanair ticket for cash?

 

[PermitToTravel]

If that results in a known fare being charged at that point then it may not be transit mode, at least not in the same way that TfL work. The point about TfL's implementation is that touches during the day do not make a charge. The daily charge is generated by the back office at the end of the day. It should also be noted that TfL's transit mode is already authorised, just not while the first touch waits. If authorisation fails then the card is blacklisted. At that point, you'll be let out of a station if you are in, but you won't be able to start any new journeys.

Transit mode too on Stagecoach provincial operations accepting contactless. I don't think there's any real reason for this other than to be able to accept online-only contactless cards - there's no capping or any similar reason to change the fare charged after the receipt is printed. If a ticket sold is cancelled though the card doesn't need to be seen again

 

[island]

Does anyone know why mandatory authorisation is being introduced? Traditionally authorisation was at retailer risk.

Visa is introducing it at the request of issuers, as currently fraudulent offline contactless transactions are issuer liability. A group of dodgy types has cottoned onto it and are opening bank accounts with minimal balance, making a single low value chip & pin transaction to activate contactless, and then spending on contactless until the card demands chip & pin again then chucking the card and opening a new account.

 

[Harpers Tate]

You can't force people.

No, you can't force people. But you can give them no other choice. IF you want to {insert type of transaction, service, business, service, etc of your choosing} then you will need to pay for it with {method of payment - e.g. contactless card}. Otherwise you may not {etc.}

Any place that is "cash only" is already forcing people as you put it down a route that I would never choose. It therefore becomes my choice whether or not to do business with them, or to choose a different business.

Easy.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Visa is introducing it at the request of issuers, as currently fraudulent offline contactless transactions are issuer liability. A group of dodgy types has cottoned onto it and are opening bank accounts with minimal balance, making a single low value chip & pin transaction to activate contactless, and then spending on contactless until the card demands chip & pin again then chucking the card and opening a new account.

Why it can't be left up to the issuer to set on a per-card basis like chip and PIN?

I thought it already was so - I have a prepaid card (Monzo / MasterCard) that authorises online even contactless transactions, and Visa debit cards attached to accounts with overdrafts that can transact offline

 

[island]

I only work for an issuer, your guess is as good as mine on the scheme’s logic...

 

[Cantab26]

To return to the original point, I’m not able to find anything saying the Metrolink decision not to accept round £1 coins is in any way illegal or that a theoretical passenger possessed of no cards, no notes, and only enough in coins if round £1 coins are counted would be exempt from being issued a Standard Fare. Legal tender rules do not come into play for purchase of goods or services in advance of their consumption.

In the most unlikely event that this becomes an issue, the passenger concerned would be best advised to use the Help Point to say that the TVM was not accepting their money, and would potentially be issued an authority number to travel.

...

I agree with this analysis and the course of action advised.

 

[Cantab26]

Interesting.

To clarify the point about legal tender:

"Legal tender" refers specifically to acceptable forms of money which MUST be accepted to settle a debt, in law.

The statement in bold is incorrect. The creditor is not obliged to accept payment in legal tender for a debt.

(Technically legal tender applies only to debts paid into a Court, but equally it is likely any Court case for failure to pay when legal tender was offered would fail - though I don't know if that would apply to a Byelaw or RoRA prosecution as these are rather special cases)

This statement is also incorrect.

The relevance of legal tender where a debt exists is if payment of the exact amount due is offered in legal tender. The creditor need not accept that payment, but it is then open to the defendant to any subsequent debt action to plead a defence of tender before claim.

The Civil Procedure Rules then impose an obligation to pay the amount previously offered into court in order to avail of the defence. This rule is not limited to debt claims though.

Mere payment into court would therefore (by itself) be too late in order to found the defence. Nevertheless, if a payment into court is made during the claim, the creditor might potentially be penalised in costs should he continue with the proceedings.

Finally, in Scotland the court will normally be willing to repel a cause if the creditor refuses a reasonable offer of payment, even if this payment is not offered in legal tender (e.g. offering to satisfy a debt of £100 with a £100 note).

 

[RonnieMac]

I have to say i really don't agree with that. London Buses have been an absolute nightmare since they got rid of cash. TFL going cashless on buses has been a complete failure. There has been many times that i have been in Greater London and surrounding areas and have wished to catch a TFL bus but haven't been able to as all i have on me is cash.

The only options now for people without cash are to buy a £5.00 Bus & Tram Pass or a £12.30 Day Travelcard which can only be bought from railway stations (and many people don't even live near railway stations). Before you could easily just buy a £2.40 Single from the driver. Oyster Cards are inconvenient as they charge a rip off £5 to get one (it should be free like other smartcards are) and then it can be hard to find places to top up (especially in areas on the bus routes that go far outside Greater London such as the RATP 465 for example).

I know i have mentioned this in another thread but i have four friends who drive TFL buses who are all having to let people on for free every day because all they have on them is cash. So TFL are also losing some money. And this also proves that not everyone has a contactless card.

I pay for pretty much everything in cash. I never use bank cards. Personally i really just don't trust banks and don't trust paying for things with cards (and most certainly don't trust contactless cards). It has to be remembered that many people still don't have bank accounts or don't like paying for things with cards.

So getting back to the point with Manchester Metrolink i think it would be awful if they went cashless as well. A huge amount of people rely on cash (and will probably continue to do so for many more years). Similarly many people still rely on round £1 coins. Just yesterday evening i got six round £1 coins in change from Waitrose and another two round £1 coins in change from W H Smith this morning. Whether or not Manchester Metrolink Trams are legally allowed to refuse them it still doesn't seem right or very customer friendly (especially as there are no ticket offices). I think they could of dealt with it better.

Something else to think about as regards other towns/cities moving to an Oyster-type system: I am currently self-employed, but on a low income, and so in receipt of certain tax credits etc. Every so often I have to produce evidence of my expenses to the relevant authorities - at the moment, this is easy, as I pay in cash for business-related transport expenses, and thus have the paper tickets to match up with my recorded expenses i.e. I am able to produce a separate ticket for each journey made for business purposes, whereas journeys for leisure purposes are not recorded. How would this work on an oyster-type system where ALL journeys made would be lumped together, and you would not be able to print off specific tickets for only some of the journeys?

 

[PermitToTravel]

You can save the journey history and highlight the relevant journeys...

 

[Deerfold]

Something else to think about as regards other towns/cities moving to an Oyster-type system: I am currently self-employed, but on a low income, and so in receipt of certain tax credits etc. Every so often I have to produce evidence of my expenses to the relevant authorities - at the moment, this is easy, as I pay in cash for business-related transport expenses, and thus have the paper tickets to match up with my recorded expenses i.e. I am able to produce a separate ticket for each journey made for business purposes, whereas journeys for leisure purposes are not recorded. How would this work on an oyster-type system where ALL journeys made would be lumped together, and you would not be able to print off specific tickets for only some of the journeys?

I'm a director of a small business. All expenses need to be kept for the tax authorities. We print out journey logs from the online Oyster/contactless system. If some areas don't offer something like this then that could cause people problems.