Ebbsfleet - Flogging a Dead Horse ?

[ScotGG]

Ebbsfleet development has finally sprung into life the past 12 months. I think over a thousand homes are currently being built and lots more going through planning.

For many though it's easier to walk to Northfleet, and if working in the City or West End, take a Southeastern train via Dartford which is barely much slower than HS1 to St Pancras and tube, and much cheaper.

The link between Northfleet and Ebbsfleet for interchange is a scandal. So simple to do, yet the failure to do so for 10 years says a lot about convoluted planning in the UK.

 

[ag51ruk]

Isn't Ebbsfleet pointless for Crossrail to serve?
Why not blast there on a class 395 on HS1 from St Pancras?

Because you might want to travel on a direct train to Canary Wharf, the West End or Heathrow?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Because you might want to travel on a direct train to Canary Wharf, the West End or Heathrow?

Indeed. This is especially true given that Stratford International has been absurdly built separately from Stratford station, and with no apparent thought for passengers who might want to interchange there (rather similar to the Ebbsfleet/Northfleet situation), and that many of the possible interchanges at St. Pancras involve very long walks.

 

[MarkyT]

Indeed. This is especially true given that Stratford International has been absurdly built separately from Stratford station, and with no apparent thought for passengers who might want to interchange there (rather similar to the Ebbsfleet/Northfleet situation), and that many of the possible interchanges at St. Pancras involve very long walks.

The Stratford pedestrian connection is MUCH better than that between Ebbsfleet and Northfleet. I understand there is a 24hr secure covered connection through the Westfield centre with no roads to cross. Between the two terminals' 'centres of gravity' it is about 500m. Some furthest extremities are a little further apart clearly. The distance is in the same ballpark as many terminal to gate walks at large airports, and there are some similar length links at other UK stations, including some London Underground passageways.

 

[sng7]

The Stratford pedestrian connection is MUCH better than that between Ebbsfleet and Northfleet. I understand there is a 24hr secure covered connection through the Westfield centre with no roads to cross. Between the two terminals' 'centres of gravity' it is about 500m. Some furthest extremities are a little further apart clearly. The distance is in the same ballpark as many terminal to gate walks at large airports, and there are some similar length links at other UK stations, including some London Underground passageways.

The is also a DLR Link between them if walking is a problem

 

[tbtc]

Ah, the world of enthusiasts, where a station with over one and a half million passengers per annum is described as a "dead horse"... surely Ebbsfleet is one of the busiest stations to have opened since privatisation and should be celebrated as such?

Oh, no, it wasn't a re-opened station following the Beeching cuts (and doesn't neatly fit the pre-1923 map), so we can't possibly love it

Seems it's doing fairly well to me, but maybe my parameters are a little different.

I'm not wholly convinced about Crossrail going all the way out there - it's a long way in a toiletless train, but then again the same could be said of Reading which is roughly twice as far from central London (and a direct link to Docklands etc provides something that HS1 doesn't).

Can't comment on the walk from Ebbsfleet to Northfleet as I've never done it but I'm all in favour of better integration (assuming that there's scope to improve the link).

 

[Clip]

I suppose the fact that it's a giant car park might explain some of the passenger figures. As for housing, it's had plenty of rail investment to be getting on with. Let them get some stuff built there before they spend any more.

No, I think youll find the most cost effective way is to build the infrastructure for railways first then let them build housing and theme parks around it

 

[MarkyT]

Can't comment on the walk from Ebbsfleet to Northfleet as I've never done it but I'm all in favour of better integration (assuming that there's scope to improve the link).

It's awful today. No thought whatsoever. In fact there was some (IMHO) totally unjustified active lobbying against better pedestrian links via the shortest most secure route (through one of the car parks) from the station operator presumably in case 'the wrong sort' walked over from the down-at-heel Ebbsfleet area and damaged customers' shiny cars. Discontinuous pavement, lack of dropped curbs, dangerous passageways and confusing signage all play their parts. The distance via shortest route is at least double the point to point distance. The (originally) sole signposted walk more like five times the direct distance. There's a despairing report to Gravesham Borough Council about the whole sorry affair here:

https://democracy.gravesham.gov.uk/...Gravesham Joint Transportation Board.pdf?T=10

See pages 65-69

There was a direct link ('B' on the Gravesham map) proposed through development land, but the developer opposed a bridge solution due to it overlooking their residential blocks, then both the proposed station improvements for Northfleet and the land redevelopment collapsed. The situation is complicated further by a local authority boundary running between the two stations.

A better Pedestrian connection between the two stations would not help local residents of the wider Gravesend and Dartford areas very much, as they can either drive or catch the local frequent Fastrack buses directly to Ebbsfleet International's main entrance. It is those from further afield, in particular passengers using stations in south east London, west of Dartford, who could benefit most by interchange with continental and Kent domestic HS trains via Ashford. There would be less utility for journeys between London and Gravesend or the Medway Towns, as there are direct fast St Pancras services via Stratford already.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Ah, the world of enthusiasts, where a station with over one and a half million passengers per annum is described as a "dead horse"... surely Ebbsfleet is one of the busiest stations to have opened since privatisation and should be celebrated as such?

Oh, no, it wasn't a re-opened station following the Beeching cuts (and doesn't neatly fit the pre-1923 map), so we can't possibly love it

To be fair, I think there are legitimate questions about Ebbsfleet that have nothing to do with Beeching, and everything to do with why the station was built as a big park-and-ride without any easy non-car access, despite being in a part of the country with a relatively high population density, and also why it was built without any connection to the North Kent line - and those issues probably cause a lot of the hostility some people would feel towards the station. Despite being a new railway station, it seems to present a perfect example of the worst of 1960's-style car-centric planning. Yet it was built in the 1990s.

I didn't use the phrase 'dead horse' myself, so wouldn't want to comment on the appropriateness or otherwise of that particular phrase.

 

[yorksrob]

Ah, the world of enthusiasts, where a station with over one and a half million passengers per annum is described as a "dead horse"... surely Ebbsfleet is one of the busiest stations to have opened since privatisation and should be celebrated as such?

Oh, no, it wasn't a re-opened station following the Beeching cuts (and doesn't neatly fit the pre-1923 map), so we can't possibly love it

Seems it's doing fairly well to me, but maybe my parameters are a little different.

I'm not wholly convinced about Crossrail going all the way out there - it's a long way in a toiletless train, but then again the same could be said of Reading which is roughly twice as far from central London (and a direct link to Docklands etc provides something that HS1 doesn't).

Can't comment on the walk from Ebbsfleet to Northfleet as I've never done it but I'm all in favour of better integration (assuming that there's scope to improve the link).

Let's face it, it's basically Gravesend Parkway. A good spot on an existing line to let people drive up to the train. Routing ever more trains to it is not going to turn the area into the Manhatten of the East.

 

[EM2]

...why the station was built as a big park-and-ride without any easy non-car access, despite being in a part of the country with a relatively high population density

It lies on a bus route between Dartford and Gravesend, with a 10-minute daytime frequency.

and also why it was built without any connection to the North Kent line...

It does connect to the North Kent line, with two trains per hour.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It does connect to the North Kent line, with two trains per hour.

lol, yes, I guess strictly speaking that's true. But I suspect you know what I meant: It would've been much better to build a station that allows direct interchange between HS2 and the North Kent line. So that, for example, if you wanted to go from Ashford to Dartford, you reasonably could do it via HS2 with just one change - rather than having to change at both Ebbsfleet and Gravesend.

 

[JamesRowden]

It lies on a bus route between Dartford and Gravesend, with a 10-minute daytime frequency

No decent bus or local rail service to the north side of the river.

 

[rebmcr]

a station that allows direct interchange between HS2 and the North Kent line.

Sounds expensive.

 

[EM2]

No decent bus or local rail service to the north side of the river.

Bus to Gravesend, ferry to Tilbury

 

[cle]

The Northfleet situation is a disgrace. It should be rejigged to make it a detached 'Ebbsfleet' pair of platforms, which would in time become the Crossrail platforms.

I've said it elsewhere, but I think Crossrail should run all services along the North Kent line - stopping patterns flighted to terminate at Rainham/Rochester/Gravesend cycling every 15 mins, with Rainhams running semi-fast etc - making up 12tph nicely.

And re-use the Dartford/Lewisham/London Bridge paths freed up for other things, like intensifying the metro routes.

 

[JamesRowden]

Bus to Gravesend, ferry to Tilbury

Rubbish for traveling a few miles directly north of Ebbsfleet in reasonable time.

 

[EM2]

Rubbish for traveling a few miles directly north of Ebbsfleet in reasonable time.

Directly North of Ebbsfleet is Grays, which is one stop from Tilbury...
Is there really that big a market for that journey?

 

[JamesRowden]

Directly North of Ebbsfleet is Grays, which is one stop from Tilbury...
Is there really that big a market for that journey?

There's 3 railway lines in parallel just north of the Thames. Providing a good public transport connection (substantially further east than Stratford) between Ebbsfleet and those 3 lines leads to public transport connectivity between Kent and Essex, Suffolk and Norfolk being massively improved.

 

[Ianno87]

There's 3 railway lines in parallel just north of the Thames. Providing a good public transport connection (substantially further east than Stratford) between Ebbsfleet and those 3 lines leads to public transport connectivity between Kent and Essex, Suffolk and Norfolk being massively improved.

How would that be massively better than the current arrangement at Stratford.

HS1 and GEML (for north Essex, Suffolk and most of Norfolk) only come close enough to each other for an interchange at Stratford, nowhere else.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Directly North of Ebbsfleet is Grays, which is one stop from Tilbury...
Is there really that big a market for that journey?

On almost any line, you could pick two individual stations and quite correctly observe that there's not much market for travel between those particular stations. And I agree, there probably isn't a huge demand for people to travel specifically from Ebbsfleet to Grays. But that's not how railways work. Trains call at lots of stations, some of them connecting with other lines, with the result that all the passengers travelling between all the different destinations adds up to enough to justify the railway. Which is one reason why JamesRowden is exactly right when he says:

There's 3 railway lines in parallel just north of the Thames. Providing a good public transport connection (substantially further east than Stratford) between Ebbsfleet and those 3 lines leads to public transport connectivity between Kent and Essex, Suffolk and Norfolk being massively improved.

Agreed.

Incidentally, that's one reason why I personally think running CrossRail to Ebbsfleet isn't a particularly bright idea - as it's basically duplicating existing SouthEastern services over a stretch where SouthEastern isn't that busy in the first place! And besides, if/when you need more capacity there, you could probably provide it much more cheaply by simply sorting out the junctions between Slade Green and Dartford to increase capacity so that more trains could run directly to Dartford.

I would much rather see a scheme where Crossrail is extended to Belvedere, and then diverts NorthEast, tunnelling under the Thames to Grays. That would give a huge step-change in connectivity for a huge number of people, providing an alternative for at least some traffic on the congested Dartford crossings, and also allow for the possibility of building a station to serve the huge housing development that is being planned north/NE of Belvedere.

 

[JamesRowden]

How would that be massively better than the current arrangement at Stratford.

HS1 and GEML (for north Essex, Suffolk and most of Norfolk) only come close enough to each other for an interchange at Stratford, nowhere else.

We could build a new connection between Ebbsfleet and the GEML and run through services which go around the east of London. Travel between Norwich and Ashford would be far quicker and simpler on such a through service than the present situation. Not saying that there is a business case to build such a line immediately. Just that the present level of connectivity is terrible compared to what it could be.

 

[EM2]

Trains call at lots of stations, some of them connecting with other lines, with the result that all the passengers travelling between all the different destinations adds up to enough to justify the railway.

So why duplicate a link that is already there (i.e. the ferry) and which is not particularly heavily used?
You already agree that duplicating one quiet service isn't a great idea:

Incidentally, that's one reason why I personally think running CrossRail to Ebbsfleet isn't a particularly bright idea - as it's basically duplicating existing SouthEastern services over a stretch where SouthEastern isn't that busy in the first place!

 

[Busaholic]

I would much rather see a scheme where Crossrail is extended to Belvedere, and then diverts NorthEast, tunnelling under the Thames to Grays..

If that were to happen, then why not go the full hog and join the two ends in a loop i.e. extend Grays to Shenfield?!

 

[Ianno87]

We could build a new connection between Ebbsfleet and the GEML and run through services which go around the east of London. Travel between Norwich and Ashford would be far quicker and simpler on such a through service than the present situation. Not saying that there is a business case to build such a line immediately. Just that the present level of connectivity is terrible compared to what it could be.

Would love to know where the GEML paths would be found. If there were any, there'd be a far, far better business case for extra Liverpool Street trains than for a handful of passengers between Suffolk/Norfolk and Kent currently not satisfied by the current change at Stratford. Or a drive over the Dartford crossing.

But I'm clearly forgetting the croyonistas's fourth law - Orbital services are *always* proportionately better than point to point ones... :roll:

 

[JamesRowden]

Would love to know where the GEML paths would be found. If there were any, there'd be a far, far better business case for extra Liverpool Street trains than for a handful of passengers between Suffolk/Norfolk and Kent currently not satisfied by the current change at Stratford. Or a drive over the Dartford crossing.

But I'm clearly forgetting the croyonistas's fourth law - Orbital services are *always* proportionately better than point to point ones... :roll:

Liverpool Street - Southend Victoria services leave spare paths on the GEML east of Shenfield. SE HS1 services via Gravesend leave spare paths on HS1 south of Ebbsfleet. Makes use of spare paths rather attracting passengers down the already busy routes through London.

Also, Dartford crossing has limited capacity.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

But I'm clearly forgetting the croyonistas's fourth law - Orbital services are *always* proportionately better than point to point ones... :roll:

In this particular case I don't think that's really fair. Of course, demand for orbital services around London - while considerable (the M25 congestion proves that!) is always going to be massively less than demand for services into London. However, there are already numerous frequent services into London from almost everywhere around the capital, whereas current provision of orbital rail services around London is almost zero - particularly between Kent and Essex. Hence it doesn't seem to be unreasonable to think that some kind of new orbital route would be worthwhile and very well used (provided, obviously, it offers connectivity to sufficient destinations).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If that were to happen, then why not go the full hog and join the two ends in a loop i.e. extend Grays to Shenfield?!

What would the purpose of that be?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

So why duplicate a link that is already there (i.e. the ferry) and which is not particularly heavily used?
You already agree that duplicating one quiet service isn't a great idea:

I don't think it would be merely duplicating the ferry - more like adding massively to the options the ferry gives. I'm very not familiar with the ferry, but I'm going to hazard a guess that the reason it's not well used is that it offers no direct rail connections, and doesn't really allow for convenient journeys to anywhere other than its two end-points - and therefore gets caught by my previous point that demand between any two specific destinations is usually going to be small by itself.

Obviously, none of that would be true for the Crossrail link I suggested.

 

[cle]

I still think the duplication is removed by not having Southeastern run east of Abbey Wood (on that branch) - and east of Dartford overall.

Everything east of Abbey Wood is taken over, and improved by Crossrail, with various termini along the North Kent route.