Northern Station Improvements & New Ticket Machines

[Geeves]

The Northern TVMs what ever type seem extremely finicky about what they accept card wise that's for sure. The booking office machine will take any cards from any country with or with out a chip. The only thing that doesn't work is collecting tickets at the window with American Express. No idea why!

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

Amex is very expensive, because they charge the company for the transaction. It's something I didn't know until last week when we got a query on Twitter about it

 

[northwichcat]

Amex is very expensive, because they charge the company for the transaction. It's something I didn't know until last week when we got a query on Twitter about it

I thought all providers charge something like 2.5% of the transaction rate.

 

[palmersears]

Is there any word as to what is happening with New Mills Newtown? Nothing has been done since the arson attack in June 2016 which closed the ticket office and knocked out the CCTV, PIS and tannoy. Every time I contact Northern I just get told work will start 'soon' but there's been no sign of life at any stage.

 

[notlob.divad]

I thought all providers charge something like 2.5% of the transaction rate.

AMEX is about 3%, but it used to be higher maybe 4-5% unless you only accepted AMEX.

 

[chrissawer]

Moston (Greater Manchester) – Replacement of existing waiting shelters and provision of new seating

It looks like they're now removing the new shelters at Moston, although the one-line LED information screens are still there.

Is this the end of the trial or has there been a problem with them? I thought they looked quite smart.

 

[Chrisyd]

There is one of the new large screen ticket machines at Salford Central, which is not yet in service.

In other Central news, the edge of the Victoria Bound platform has got new tarmac, the lift to platform two is still not open (it shut as part of the moving of the tracks through platform 3 and 4) and the sliding doors exit towards Manchester has been fixed, rather than the doors stuck half open as had been the situation for quite a while.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It looks like they're now removing the new shelters at Moston, although the one-line LED information screens are still there.

Is this the end of the trial or has there been a problem with them? I thought they looked quite smart.

The one at Adlington (Lancs) was barriered off yesterday, with its foundations dug up.

 

[urbophile]

If Northern are about to take over more services through Liverpool South Parkway, perhaps they could give thought to an additional ticket machine and to improving the reliability of the one they already have. Additionally, does anyone know if there is a TVM at John Lennon Airport? I understand you can buy through tickets (valid on the bus) from any station to the airport: that isn't much use if you arrive at the airport and need to travel further.

 

[northwichcat]

If Northern are about to take over more services through Liverpool South Parkway, perhaps they could give thought to an additional ticket machine and to improving the reliability of the one they already have. Additionally, does anyone know if there is a TVM at John Lennon Airport? I understand you can buy through tickets (valid on the bus) from any station to the airport: that isn't much use if you arrive at the airport and need to travel further.

I've not been to Liverpool Airport for a few years but there did used to be a Parkeon TVM there.

 

[WatcherZero]

There used to be one at JLA, it was planned to be removed for lack of use though around the same time the council axed the every 10 minute free shuttle bus service the 501. They have recently relaunched the bus shuttles through interleaving the half hourly 86A and 500 from the Airport to the city center providing a roughly 15 min frequency during the day and hourly service through the night, though they aren't nonstop between the Airport and Station anymore. Today a Liverpool plusbus is about 50% more expensive than buying the ticket for the short bus hop on the bus itself (£2.20 vs £3.80).

 

[northwichcat]

There used to be one at JLA, it was planned to be removed for lack of use though around the same time the council axed the every 10 minute free shuttle bus service the 501. They have recently relaunched the bus shuttles through interleaving the half hourly 86A and 500 from the Airport to the city center providing a roughly 15 min frequency during the day and hourly service through the night, though they aren't nonstop between the Airport and Station anymore. Today a Liverpool plusbus is about 50% more expensive than buying the ticket for the short bus hop on the bus itself (£2.20 vs £3.80).

I don't think it was well promoted that you could buy a ticket from Liverpool Airport to most rail stations without needing to buy a separate bus ticket.

Of course for British passengers living far enough out from the Airport to be able to buy return tickets which allow you a month to make your return journey there was no need to buy a ticket at the Airport anyway, unless you used a different arrival airport to your departure airport.

 

[johntea]

Woodlesford has gained one of the fancy large screen ticket machines which is an odd location!

 

[northwichcat]

Woodlesford has gained one of the fancy large screen ticket machines which is an odd location!

Is it a first TVM, a replacement TVM or an additional TVM? Woodlesford gets 335,000 journeys per annum and apparently has no ticket office so it makes sense that it should have TVM(s).

 

[johntea]

It had a Parkeon one previously in the same spot so unless this new one takes cash or something I don't quite see the point of the replacement!

Castleford still has a rather unreliable Parkeon and has 575,000 passengers!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Due to the large number of PTE tickets (and rather lackadaisical revenue protection) within West Yorkshire, I'd take the published station usage figures with a pinch of salt. In most cases, actual usage will be a fair bit higher I imagine. Especially places like Woodlesford and Cottingley which has had a lot of house building nearby in the last decade or so.

 

[158756]

Due to the large number of PTE tickets (and rather lackadaisical revenue protection) within West Yorkshire, I'd take the published station usage figures with a pinch of salt. In most cases, actual usage will be a fair bit higher I imagine. Especially places like Woodlesford and Cottingley which has had a lot of house building nearby in the last decade or so.

I'd be surprised if they were that far out given that the estimates for Woodlesford and Cottingley seem to be in line with the service provided by the TOC and Dft in possession of better passenger counts and Northern trains run through both without stopping. PTE tickets can and have been over-estimated as well as under.

 

[Bantamzen]

Is it a first TVM, a replacement TVM or an additional TVM? Woodlesford gets 335,000 journeys per annum and apparently has no ticket office so it makes sense that it should have TVM(s).

Then its probably not a good tine to point out that work has also started in Baildon to install a TVM.....

But as 61653HTAFC says, PTE figures will not accurately reflect numbers using the stations with WY Metro passes. At least once installed people can renew theor MCard passes there and not at other stations en route as now and hopefully leading to more meaningful stats.

 

[racklam]

Then its probably not a good tine to point out that work has also started in Baildon to install a TVM.....

But as 61653HTAFC says, PTE figures will not accurately reflect numbers using the stations with WY Metro passes. At least once installed people can renew theor MCard passes there and not at other stations en route as now and hopefully leading to more meaningful stats.

Cattal (60,000 journeys) also seems to have been made ready for a TVM - they've installed a small shelter, and there are wires coming out of the ground.

 

[lejog]

As I recently reported in another thread, Network Rail have recently received listed building consent to install four new ticket machines at Hebden Bridge, two on each platform, to replace a single machine on the Leeds platform. Permission for a smart screen was refused.

This seems a little odd to me as the current machine is hardly well used, with most passengers seeming to prefer to use the ticket office. Also in the morning rush hour RPIs discourage ticketless access to the platforms.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd be surprised if they were that far out given that the estimates for Woodlesford and Cottingley seem to be in line with the service provided by the TOC and Dft in possession of better passenger counts and Northern trains run through both without stopping. PTE tickets can and have been over-estimated as well as under.

Then its probably not a good tine to point out that work has also started in Baildon to install a TVM.....

But as 61653HTAFC says, PTE figures will not accurately reflect numbers using the stations with WY Metro passes. At least once installed people can renew theor MCard passes there and not at other stations en route as now and hopefully leading to more meaningful stats.

Non-Leeds commuters in particular seem to be getting wise to the fact that an MCard will cost similar and often less than a monthly season ticket between home and work, not to mention the advantage of being able to use buses if the trains go awry. Yes you miss out on compensation for disruption but many people seem to think that claiming is a time-consuming PITP anyway, rightly or wrongly.

The only times my MCard is logged on the railway is at Bradford Interchange, Wakefield Westgate, and Huddersfield. The first two I only use a couple of times each month and at Huddersfield the barriers are often locked open, even during the peaks at times this week.

I do hope that MCard renewals won't automatically credit usage to the station used, as this month my top-up was done at Slaithwaite which I wasn't using then and only do use occasionally!

 

[lejog]

WYMetro/Northern carried out a passenger survey/count a few years back to more accurately determine the use of Metrocards and ticketless travel. Whether the results have been fed back into the publicly available usage figures I don't know, but reasonably accurate data should be available in MOIRA.

 

[northwichcat]

WYMetro/Northern carried out a passenger survey/count a few years back to more accurately determine the use of Metrocards and ticketless travel. Whether the results have been fed back into the publicly available usage figures I don't know, but reasonably accurate data should be available in MOIRA.

There were some significant changes recorded to usage at stations in PTE areas a few years ago which the ORR attributed to a change in the way PTE tickets are recorded. However, as with stations outside PTE areas the figures can be incorrect if there's a lot of ticket-less travel to/from the station or if a lot of people split tickets at a particular station (which is very common with the first station inside the PTE area.)

 

[Bantamzen]

Non-Leeds commuters in particular seem to be getting wise to the fact that an MCard will cost similar and often less than a monthly season ticket between home and work, not to mention the advantage of being able to use buses if the trains go awry. Yes you miss out on compensation for disruption but many people seem to think that claiming is a time-consuming PITP anyway, rightly or wrongly.

The only times my MCard is logged on the railway is at Bradford Interchange, Wakefield Westgate, and Huddersfield. The first two I only use a couple of times each month and at Huddersfield the barriers are often locked open, even during the peaks at times this week.

I do hope that MCard renewals won't automatically credit usage to the station used, as this month my top-up was done at Slaithwaite which I wasn't using then and only do use occasionally!

Perhaps they could be used in part-calculation where they are topped up away from barriered stations? So in my example normally I would renew my monthly pass either at Leeds, or one of Shipley or Guiseley, none of which are my morning start points. So my commute from Baildon is invisible unless a survey shows otherwise. But when the TVM goes live at Baildon, I'm more likely to use this and so this would at least show a purchase there and then that data could be potentially proportionately attributed to the entrances/exits there? Its not entirely ideal, but will at least give a bit more insight into where many journeys may be starting where currently there are no ticket facilities available. And of course once they are installed at all stations, there is much less scope for fare dodging, something that sadly is still very evident at the moment.

 

[lejog]

Non-Leeds commuters in particular seem to be getting wise to the fact that an MCard will cost similar and often less than a monthly season ticket between home and work, not to mention the advantage of being able to use buses if the trains go awry. Yes you miss out on compensation for disruption but many people seem to think that claiming is a time-consuming PITP anyway, rightly or wrongly.

The only times my MCard is logged on the railway is at Bradford Interchange, Wakefield Westgate, and Huddersfield. The first two I only use a couple of times each month and at Huddersfield the barriers are often locked open, even during the peaks at times this week.

I do hope that MCard renewals won't automatically credit usage to the station used, as this month my top-up was done at Slaithwaite which I wasn't using then and only do use occasionally!

Coincidentally, I've just found this news item googling for something completely different.

In 2016, the number of bus and train journeys made by fare-paying passengers using their MCard was 16.3 million, which is a 20% increase on the previous year......Over 200 million bus and train journeys are made each year in West Yorkshire

So while its use is growing, MCard only is only used for 8% or less of bus and train journeys. Errors in passenger number figures are not going to be a problem with this level of take up.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Coincidentally, I've just found this news item googling for something completely different.



So while its use is growing, MCard only is only used for 8% or less of bus and train journeys. Errors in passenger number figures are not going to be a problem with this level of take up.

But if the assumed level of take-up is wrong...?

For example, from Batley to Mirfield I won't always get ticket-checked. If I do, the guard looks at the card for less than a second, acknowledges me and moves on to the next person- that's the nature of the job at present... but how is the fact that I've been on that train and used an MCard actually recorded officially? Do the new (guards') ticket machines allow the guard to log on the machine, that a PTE ticket is used? Or, as I suspect, am I invisible as far as ridership figures are concerned?

It's only anecdotal admittedly, but I'd have guessed that MCard use on the Huddersfield to Leeds axis is closer to 20% than 10%, though a fair bit of that may be the StudentPlus MCard which is probably wise to record separately.

 

[northwichcat]

But if the assumed level of take-up is wrong...?

For example, from Batley to Mirfield I won't always get ticket-checked. If I do, the guard looks at the card for less than a second, acknowledges me and moves on to the next person- that's the nature of the job at present... but how is the fact that I've been on that train and used an MCard actually recorded officially? Do the new (guards') ticket machines allow the guard to log on the machine, that a PTE ticket is used? Or, as I suspect, am I invisible as far as ridership figures are concerned?

It's only anecdotal admittedly, but I'd have guessed that MCard use on the Huddersfield to Leeds axis is closer to 20% than 10%, though a fair bit of that may be the StudentPlus MCard which is probably wise to record separately.

For flexible bus & train tickets they'll likely have detailed information for a representative sample and then use those figures alongside the total ticket sales to estimate how many rail journeys are made to and from each station using the ticket type. You're not invisible unless you are travelling without paying but it's possible for someone making a Batley to Mirfield journey to be counted as making a Batley to Deighton journey (or similar.)

I would imagine the Huddersfield-Leeds and Bradford-Leeds corridors would have a higher student passenger numbers than the West Yorkshire average.

 

[323235]

Big touch screen ones

We've already installed some at Ashton, Broad Green, Prescot, Roby, Garswood, Hough Green and West Allerton

Do you know when they plan to install the 2 machines at Poynton?

 

[lejog]

But if the assumed level of take-up is wrong...?

For example, from Batley to Mirfield I won't always get ticket-checked. If I do, the guard looks at the card for less than a second, acknowledges me and moves on to the next person- that's the nature of the job at present... but how is the fact that I've been on that train and used an MCard actually recorded officially? Do the new (guards') ticket machines allow the guard to log on the machine, that a PTE ticket is used? Or, as I suspect, am I invisible as far as ridership figures are concerned?

It's only anecdotal admittedly, but I'd have guessed that MCard use on the Huddersfield to Leeds axis is closer to 20% than 10%, though a fair bit of that may be the StudentPlus MCard which is probably wise to record separately.

As JCollins says all you need is a representative sample of a minimum size that is readily calculated, certainly not to count every journey.

Probably not a good example, given their prediction record, but a representative sample of around 5,000 people should be enough for a poll to predict an election result within 1%. The problem opinion polls have is finding a representative sample with wild swings of turnout by different demographic populations over recent elections. Exit polls have suffered less from this problem, because they actual ask people who have voted, but the remarkably accurate exit polls at the last election were based on asking 100 voters at each of 100 polling stations how they voted, not asking all 30m voters.

Just as your journey is invisible, the fact that votes of 30m voters were invisible to the exit pollsters is neither here or there.

Are you really claiming that the measured level of takeup is wrong based on one person's anecdotal evidence based on a single flow? What sample size does that represent and what evidence do you have that its representative? Sorry but it would be hard to think of an better example of an unrepresentative sample based on an inadequate sample size, virtually guaranteed to give wildly inaccurate results.

 

[northwichcat]

Do you know when they plan to install the 2 machines at Poynton?

Out of interest where have you heard Poynton is getting 2 machines?