Is this fraud?

[OLJR]

Consider the following scenario:

(i) My Client is expecting me to buy rail travel and will strictly reimburse STD and not 1ST
(ii) I pay GBP 100 for a STD Anytime Return (agreed with the Client)
(iii) I then pay GBP 120 for a pair of 1ST Advance Singles
(iv) I bill the Client GBP 100 - the Client needs a receipt but not the original coupons
(v) I refund the unused STD Anytime Return and pay the fee (is it still GBP 10?), eating the fare difference myself.

Note: showing the Client the two !ST Advance Singles and then claiming for the Anytime Return is not an option.

If I do this will I have committed fraud? Obviously I will travel STD to avoid committing fraud, but I would rather travel 1ST. Any other totally legal ways around?

Many thanks in advance.

 

[thedbdiboy]

No....client has paid you what you agreed and you have covered the difference for what you would like. Refund is obtained in line with what the ticket conditions allow.

 

[Feathers44]

No. You claimed as agreed, the STD ticket cost what was agreed and you travelled as agreed and spent all of the claimed money on the travel.

There may be simpler ways of getting the expenses paid but if that's all the client will wear then I guess that's what you need to do. (I am in no way legally qualified so this is just my opinion.)

 

[Blindtraveler]

I have been and am sometimes in this situation and have always said to the client that I am happy to simply pay the difference between STD and First for the purposes of increased productivity etc and asked if they will simply accept an invoice for the standard price, a copy of the transaction for the booking and a note about how I have made a personal choice to up grade and am not expecting any reembersment.

If client isnt liking that idea then I would say your idea is the best and I can't see any froad in that, you wear the cost of admin and upgrade yourself.

 

[Camden]

Reimburse standard only is usually only meant to limit the amount refundable, not dictate which class you should actually travel.

They're your client not your owner, and if you want to travel 1st who are they to tell you otherwise? If you choose to stump up your own cash to cover the excess, why would they care?

If I were you, I'd keep it simple. Tell them that a refund of the standard price is acceptable, but you will be travelling first and covering the difference yourself, so the receipt supplied will show an amount higher than that being claimed, and that you will clearly document this on the invoice so there is no confusion.

Forward the receipt for your first class tickets (with copies of the coupons to show it is for the journey involved), along with a copy of NRE showing the standard fare price, and an invoice clearly stating your claim for reimbursement for the standard fare available for the journey.

 

[Crossover]

Having seen the post by thedbdiboy, could the Southern Rainy Day (Money Back) Guarantee be of use if one were to do this? Purchase the Anytime Return through Southern, selecting collect at station, obtain receipt from this (email), then having not collected the tickets, cancel them, obtaining a refund. I believe such a refund wouldn't attract a £10 fee

 

[najaB]

If I do this will I have committed fraud? Obviously I will travel STD to avoid committing fraud, but I would rather travel 1ST. Any other totally legal ways around?

I agree with the others - no fraud has occurred. You have billed the client for STD travel in accordance with their expectations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Advances were suitable, I'd say it would be OK if you purchased two Standard Advances and excessed them yourself to 1st. I have done this. Or used Weekend First if applicable.

Buying an Anytime when Advances were available and suitable probably isn't fraud, but it is taking the mick, and if I was signing the expenses I would look very dimly on such actions.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

When my boss pays my travel expenses, eg. for fuel, we agree on a set amount and I provide fuel receipts that cover this amount and often more, since I just fill the car up.

If you agree an amount with the client, they should be able to accept the higher receipts and claim a set amount from these, so no need to mess around.

 

[Romilly]

I am not sure it is as clear-cut as some have suggested.

If the client says (or the contract with them says) that they will only pay for standard-class travel then, as there has been no standard-class travel, any claim for travel costs would be outwith the terms of the agreement - whether it would be criminally fraudulent would depend on an in-depth consideration of the relevant criminal law (England & Wales, or Scotland, as applicable).

If the agreement is to pay for travel costs not exceeding the costs of standard-class travel (although from what the OP says this appears not to be the case here), then what the OP proposes would be fine (and, indeed, would be unnecessarily complicated although would be a simple way of showing what standard-class costs would be, bearing in mind that in some cases offpeak tickets, or standard-class Advances**, might be the relevant measure). Of course, if two 1st-class Advances cost less in total than the appropriate standard-class ticket(s), it would be wrong in such a case to claim for more than the cost of the 1st-class tickets.

** - after all, if the OP is happy to travel on Advances, albeit in 1st class, it suggests that what the client should be charged is the cost of two standard-class Advances if that is less than the cost of a return.

 

[Blindtraveler]

A situation such as you describe would be fixed by the OPs idea of buying, claiming for then refunding STD tickets and then buying First oens.

 

[Romilly]

I am not sure that it would: it would all depend on what the actual agreement is.

In particular, the OP's plan involves buying standard-class tickets but does not involve any standard-class travel. For some organisations (e.g. in the public or charitable sectors), what matters more is avoiding the perception that they waste money by paying (in whole or part) for 1st class travel, even to the extent of preferring to pay for standard-class travel when 1st class would be cheaper.

 

[philthetube]

as long as your client is aware of what is going on and is happy then no fraud can possibly be committed.

 

[dcsprior]

As others have said, it doesn't strike me as entirely honest to claim for the cost of anytime tickets when what is needed (and bought) are advances.

It'd seem better all round to find a sensible person at you client who will accept you buying 1st but billing standard. If there isn't a single person willing to be sensible about this, I'd worry about how sensible they'll be when it comes to the rest of the job!

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

 

[bb21]

I can see quite big issues if the cost being reimbursed were higher than those the First Class ticket used cost.

Where the cost differential is as stated by the OP, there is less of an issue. I wouldn't say it's fraud, but there is certainly a level of dishonesty, and that is not a quality desired. I would say tread carefully and probably best to make your intentions clear to the client.

 

[najaB]

Where the cost differential is as stated by the OP, there is less of an issue. I wouldn't say it's fraud, but there is certainly a level of dishonesty, and that is not a quality desired.

Indeed. It definitely doesn't meet the definition of fraud but that doesn't mean that the OP might not get in trouble with their client.

 

[paddington]

In particular, the OP's plan involves buying standard-class tickets but does not involve any standard-class travel. For some organisations (e.g. in the public or charitable sectors), what matters more is avoiding the perception that they waste money by paying (in whole or part) for 1st class travel, even to the extent of preferring to pay for standard-class travel when 1st class would be cheaper.

+1

Some organisations will pay for a fully flexible airline economy ticket (Y class) but not for a discounted business (I class) where the business ticket may be hundreds of pounds cheaper.

As others have said, it doesn't strike me as entirely honest to claim for the cost of anytime tickets when what is needed (and bought) are advances.

It'd seem better all round to find a sensible person at you client who will accept you buying 1st but billing standard. If there isn't a single person willing to be sensible about this, I'd worry about how sensible they'll be when it comes to the rest of the job!

And from the client's perspective, going round in circles in order to travel 1st may also lead to them wondering about how the contractor will act on the rest of the job too.

Obviously the sensible way to deal with it, barring a strict no premium travel policy, is to just demonstrate what the standard (or cheapest) travel option is and then ask for that amount to be reimbursed regardless of actual travel costs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously the sensible way to deal with it, barring a strict no premium travel policy, is to just demonstrate what the standard (or cheapest) travel option is and then ask for that amount to be reimbursed regardless of actual travel costs.

Agreed. Basically, what would you *actually* have done (and been able to justify doing) had you not wished to go 1st. IOW, there is no justification in buying an Anytime if one is not needed.

If Advances suit, though, it can be decomplicated (XC aside who charge £10 for this) by just buying the Standard advances and swapping them for 1st later at your own cost.

 

[AlterEgo]

If Advances were suitable, I'd say it would be OK if you purchased two Standard Advances and excessed them yourself to 1st. I have done this. Or used Weekend First if applicable.

Buying an Anytime when Advances were available and suitable probably isn't fraud, but it is taking the mick, and if I was signing the expenses I would look very dimly on such actions.

I am inclined to agree with this perspective.

 

[lejog]

Consider the following scenario:

(i) My Client is expecting me to buy rail travel and will strictly reimburse STD and not 1ST
(ii) I pay GBP 100 for a STD Anytime Return (agreed with the Client)
(iii) I then pay GBP 120 for a pair of 1ST Advance Singles
(iv) I bill the Client GBP 100 - the Client needs a receipt but not the original coupons
(v) I refund the unused STD Anytime Return and pay the fee (is it still GBP 10?), eating the fare difference myself.

Note: showing the Client the two !ST Advance Singles and then claiming for the Anytime Return is not an option.

If I do this will I have committed fraud? Obviously I will travel STD to avoid committing fraud, but I would rather travel 1ST. Any other totally legal ways around?

Many thanks in advance.

Whether you are committing fraud or not, I don't know, I'm not a criminal lawyer.

However, from your description of what you are doing you it appears you will be breach of contract with your client, which of course is a civil matter not a criminal matter.

What is your arrangement with HMRC re business expenses? If you are audited by the taxman and found to be reclaiming cash for tickets for which clients have paid as business expenses, then they will take a very dim view of this. Again, what action they would take, I can't predict, but criminal charges are a distinct possibility.

 

[najaB]

What is your arrangement with HMRC re business expenses? If you are audited by the taxman and found to be reclaiming cash for tickets for which clients have paid as business expenses, then they will take a very dim view of this. Again, what action they would take, I can't predict, but criminal charges are a distinct possibility.

I'm not sure this is necessarily a problem - depending on how it is filed. Billing your client £100 for tickets that cost £120 isn't in itself something that the tax man would concern himself with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure this is necessarily a problem - depending on how it is filed. Billing your client £100 for tickets that cost £120 isn't in itself something that the tax man would concern himself with.

I've certainly done this and it indeed isn't a problem. The most likely case is where you have a meal and then go on to have an evening's drinking which ends up on the same bill - you simply claim the amount of the meal only and put the full receipt in, that there are other incidental items on there that are not claimed is neither here nor there, presuming the employer didn't have an odd policy like "no alcohol to be consumed on business trips" or somesuch.

Another common case is where the employer will not pay for consumption from the hotel minibar - you still put the full receipt in, but with the amount claimed reduced by the amount of minibar spending.

If doing it for travel, though, if buying Standard and excessing didn't work for some reason, I think what I'd be inclined to do[1] is to put in the actual tickets plus a screenshot showing evidence of what the Standard tickets would have cost (honestly, at the actual time of purchase) and claim the latter.

Edit: Thinking on, does the previous poster mean "buying an Anytime Single, claiming it, refunding it and putting the money towards a First Class ticket"? Yes, I can see that that may be technically dubious, though if the refunded money was spent on a replacement ticket I doubt there would be any proceedings as the effect of it is exactly the same as excessing the ticket (indeed, Trainline based sites process excesses/ticket changes in exactly that way). If, OTOH, you did that and bought a *cheaper* ticket you would be on very dodgy grounds indeed both with HMRC and your employer - and I would say that is fraud because you would have obtained pecuniary advantage (the difference) by deception (lying about what you'd bought).

[1] I've never actually done that, when I've done it I've always bought the Standard tickets and excessed them or used Weekend First - though that may not be ideal on some TOCs (XC certainly) who still charge the £10 admin fee for doing that.

 

[cuccir]

Out of interest - what are the chances of the client actually finding out about this? If they are audited, would something connect the receipt to a cancelled ticket? Is there a database of refunded and claimed train tickets?!?

'Getting away with it' is not necessarily the thing to judge, but when you're not actually making any money on this and the deceit is much more technical, it might be a consideration!

 

[FenMan]

I deal with a contractor where their standard expense policy is to book business class for their employees on longer flights. There is an agreement that they will only invoice us for the equivalent standard class fare available at the time of the booking. In the event that only premium fares are available for a given flight and no reasonable alternatives are available e.g. there is only one flight a day, they would discuss this with us before booking. There has never been an issue.

 

[yorkie]

It's not "fraud" however in order to be in no doubt that it is acceptable, I would advise doing one of two things (depending on fare availability & pricing and the requirements of the passenger & client):

1) Obtain Standard Advances; bill the cost of these to the customer. Obtain excess fares by paying the difference between Standard and 1st Advances. You will then be travelling on the original tickets in addition to the upgrade tickets. Without checking, I am pretty sure no admin fee is charged for this (except when travelling with XC).

2) Obtain Standard Anytime; bill the cost of this to the customer. Obtain an excess to 1st Anytime. No admin fee is charged for this.

 

[lejog]

The problem with the taxman is that OP is reclaiming cash which will be treated as income (whether dishonestly obtained or not). Whether or not the 1st class ticket then bought is an allowable business expense is unknown, but they should be declared separately.

Having been subject to a tax audit on my expenses one year when they were very complex, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with the taxman is that OP is reclaiming cash which will be treated as income (whether dishonestly obtained or not). Whether or not the 1st class ticket then bought is an allowable business expense is unknown, but they should be declared separately.

Having been subject to a tax audit on my expenses one year when they were very complex, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

Ah, I see. Yes, if you do a tax return you would need to declare it like this. TBH, the chances of it being an issue if you are on PAYE are miniscule. But the option involving excessing (so never receiving the cash) just seems much more above board generally to me, and the latter (excessing) is what I would do.

 

[lejog]

It's not "fraud" however in order to be in no doubt that it is acceptable, I would advise doing one of two things (depending on fare availability & pricing and the requirements of the passenger & client):

1) Obtain Standard Advances; bill the cost of these to the customer. Obtain excess fares by paying the difference between Standard and 1st Advances. You will then be travelling on the original tickets in addition to the upgrade tickets. Without checking, I am pretty sure no admin fee is charged for this (except when travelling with XC).

2) Obtain Standard Anytime; bill the cost of this to the customer. Obtain an excess to 1st Anytime. No admin fee is charged for this.

I agree with Yorkie on this, depending on the HMRC policy of course, if the OP is self-employed the excess fare may be an acceptable business expense and if so tax reclaimed.

 

[Puffing Devil]

To echo some of the comments on here - as I client I would not be happy with a consultant/contractor billing for Standard Anytime Tickets when a suitable advance was available. The suitability of the advance is underlined by the use of a First advance.

 

[lejog]

Ah, I see. Yes, if you do a tax return you would need to declare it like this. TBH, the chances of it being an issue if you are on PAYE are miniscule. But the option involving excessing (so never receiving the cash) just seems much more above board generally to me, and the latter (excessing) is what I would do.

I was on PAYE when my expenses were audited. The chances of issues with HMRC depend on who you work for. As I worked for a company that pays out 10s of £m in travel and accommodation expenses a year, HMRC always audit a few projects a year, typically those with large numbers of staff working away from home.