Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[Pumbaa]

On an interesting side note, Hitachi have withdrawn from the bidding process for the new Thameslink stock.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

The internet version also has City starters at 0526/0607/0638 plus a terminator arriving 0844 (the 0752 ex-Sevenoaks continues beyond City). WebTIS on the other hand includes the first three starters/terminators like the SER timetable but also claims both the 0844 and 0900 are terminators and that the 1733/1821/2039 arrivals start north of City. Not confusing huh? :?

WebTIS also claims that the 1816 'crowd-buster' from Farringdon becomes the 1705 ex-Sevenoaks with the following service (1824 call at StP) no longer starting at Sevenoaks and doing so at 1810 in Elephant & Castle instead (without a Farringdon call!). That's another 319 diagram or two since the 317s are needed on the GN route, we only have 2 units spare as it is (is 377502 definitely on course for service starting this Friday?).

377502 is to be deliveried to Bedford on friday but wont be in service till some time next week.

There's 3 spare 319 although next week that will be down to two with one of the 377/2 returning to Southern.

As it stands the new timetable looks to be D2C KO0 timetable! Different from the current but not better. Looks like by then end of this timetable we will have the full KO0 timetable but dont expect it to be any time soon.

 

[upnorth71]

Here is the article about Hitachi's withdrawal from the Thameslink bidding:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_...achi_drops_out_of_thameslink_competition.html

 

[mackenzie_blu]

377502 move to Bedford was cancelled.

Unit 377209 has returned to Southern leaving FCC with 7 borrowed units for now.

This leaves two spare trains.

 

[Edvid]

I keep on wondering where that 'extra' spare came from - and I think it's finally clicked now.

I remember reading somewhere that there are still 99 D1C diagrams in total but one of the 377 diagrams was originally thought to be a 319 diagram (at the time only 501 and 504 had been dispatched from Derby). That equates to planned peak utilisation rates of ~95.35% for the 319s* and ~96.12% for the whole TL fleet.*

So the situation is marginally better than I thought. However with only 2 377/5s in service ATM we still need another 3 or 4 before May 18 and yet another 3 before June 15 just to avoid temporarily losing diagrams - this is based on all 86 319s being diagrammed (and also the 4 Networkers for City starters/terminators) until even more 377/5s are delivered.

Anyway, why didn't 502 make the trip?

[* Assuming 4 spares. With 2 of them in use the respective rates increase to ~97.67% and ~98.06%]

 

[Evvy73]

Morning, I've just come past Selhurst Depot on my way in to work and 377502 and 377507 are parked by the train cleaners (between the depot and Norwood Junction) looking nice and shiny.

Hopefully they will be in service soon!

 

[westcoaster]

did not see either of them as i went past.

also heard that the 0420 to brighton was a 319 vice 377.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

It was noted that some chages to the diagrams has happened. The 0650 (Blackfriars time) Brighton service this morning was 377501 running alone where as normally its a 319.

377502 should be in service shortly. Although that is based on the unit being deliveried to Bedford last week which didnt happen. But generally expect this slow pace to continue as the 377/5 trickle into service.

 

[asylumxl]

Nevermind. Question answered elsewhere.

 

[Edvid]

A 0650 BFR departure sounds like the 0540 BDM-BTN, was that 377 formation transferred from the 0600 BDM-BTN then? If so it's just as well I got to LTN later, intending to get the 0708 HST but bailing out and getting a 319/2 at 0651 instead (and I had let another southbound /2 go past at 0640!)

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I keep on wondering where that 'extra' spare came from - and I think it's finally clicked now.

I remember reading somewhere that there are still 99 D1C diagrams in total but one of the 377 diagrams was originally thought to be a 319 diagram (at the time only 501 and 504 had been dispatched from Derby). That equates to planned peak utilisation rates of ~95.35% for the 319s* and ~96.12% for the whole TL fleet.*

So the situation is marginally better than I thought. However with only 2 377/5s in service ATM we still need another 3 or 4 before May 18 and yet another 3 before June 15 just to avoid temporarily losing diagrams - this is based on all 86 319s being diagrammed (and also the 4 Networkers for City starters/terminators) until even more 377/5s are delivered.

Anyway, why didn't 502 make the trip?

[* Assuming 4 spares. With 2 of them in use the respective rates increase to ~97.67% and ~98.06%]

Where did you get the figure of 99x 319 diagrams? The D1C timetable is made up of 97 total diagrams made up of

83x 319 diagrams
8x 377/2 diagrams
4x DC only (Networker) diagrams
2x 377/5 diagrams

The 317 is an extra diagram.

A 0650 BFR departure sounds like the 0540 BDM-BTN, was that 377 formation transferred from the 0600 BDM-BTN then? If so it's just as well I got to LTN later, intending to get the 0708 HST but bailing out and getting a 319/2 at 0651 instead (and I had let another southbound /2 go past at 0640!)

I dont have a copy of the timetable to hand but both myself and a staff member who arrives on the 0650 departure noticed this train is normally a 377. Wasn't in the Core for long this morning before moving on to another station so not so sure about the rest of the 377 trips. Only know about the East Croydon problems because of the info I got sent by control.

 

[Edvid]

Considering what D1C stands for how exactly are the 2 317 diagrams considered extra to the D1C diagrams? :? Also, as mentioned earlier the 'crowd-buster' may well continue beyond this timetable and ultilise a 319 or two starting in DC territory from May 18.

 

[asylumxl]

377502 seen heading north today at 1:33pm at Blackfriars

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Considering what D1C stands for how exactly are the 2 317 diagrams considered extra to the D1C diagrams? :? Also, as mentioned earlier the 'crowd-buster' may well continue beyond this timetable and ultilise a 319 or two starting in DC territory from May 18.

Because the unit is on stand by when it runs and can be cancelled at anytime if its felt its not needed or would cause problems if it ran (ie main disprution).

Reading another briefing and there is 99 diagrams with the fibnal two made up from short forming two services being the 0629 Luton - Sevenoaks and 0816 Brighton - Bedford.

There was another rolling stock review before May timetable, hopefully that may answer some of the questions as to what they are tweaking to get the May timetable change. The good news is as said above 377502 has been deliveried and is due in service by friday.

 

[Edvid]

Thanks for clarifying the status of the 317 diagrams.

Glad to hear 502 finally made it (with recently fixed 208 I've heard), mind you if I'd known about the move I'd have spent a few extra minutes in Farringdon this afternoon. Also, I hear that 206 was diverted to Moorgate today (DC issues presumably) - was that why the 1704 BTN-BDM (1822 Blackfriars) was cancelled today? (What also intrigues me is that during that minute 319430+(I think)440 came through Blackfriars empty, whether this is relevant I don't know.)

And finally, 507 has already been to Milton Keynes Central with 215 on test; DC trips to Brighton/Barnham with another 377 (was originally going to be 502) are also planned, diagrams courtesy of JKA:

[April 27/28]
5Z60 21+00 Selhurst depot - Milton Keynes
5Z61 23+19 Milton Keynes - Kensington Oly
5Z62 00+42 Kensington Oly - Milton Keynes
5Z63 02+03 Milton Keynes - Selhhrst depot

[April 28/29]
5Z70 21+00 Selhurst depot - London Bridge - Brighton
5Z71 22+55 Brighton - London Bridge
5Z72 00+15 London Bridge - Barnham
5Z73 02+00 Barnham - London Bridge
5Z74 03+25 London Bridge - Selhurst depot

 

[jon0844]

Tonight was a bit of a mess on the GN side. Couldn't quite figure out all the movements, despite having the live departure boards access, but trains to/from Moorgate were suspended - meaning some trains turned around at Finsbury Park, or came in to King's Cross and then back out empty.

I had to go from Old Street to King's Cross via tube (very packed, while reading the front page story about pig flu to spread on packed tube trains!!!) and the 1822 to Royston was losing huge amounts of time. 10 minutes late leaving Finsbury Park (despite being roughly on time to leave KGX) and losing 1-2 minutes per stop thereafter. I can only imagine we ended up following a slow to WGC that had turned around at Finsbury Park on some form of emergency timetable.

Anyway, I saw the poster at KGX saying that some 317s were being taken out to bolster the TL side - with yet another long explanation of how Bombardier let FCC down. When we passed Hornsey it was surreal. NOT A SINGLE TRAIN to be seen. Absolutely empty - not even the 321s!!

What the hell happened to them - like the empty 313 that left KGX presumably to return to the depot?!

It really does seem as if FCC are up against it at the moment.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Thanks for clarifying the status of the 317 diagrams.

Glad to hear 502 finally made it (with recently fixed 208 I've heard), mind you if I'd known about the move I'd have spent a few extra minutes in Farringdon this afternoon. Also, I hear that 206 was diverted to Moorgate today (DC issues presumably) - was that why the 1704 BTN-BDM (1822 Blackfriars) was cancelled today? (What also intrigues me is that during that minute 319430+(I think)440 came through Blackfriars empty, whether this is relevant I don't know.)

And finally, 507 has already been to Milton Keynes Central with 215 on test; DC trips to Brighton/Barnham with another 377 (was originally going to be 502) are also planned, diagrams courtesy of JKA:

Tell me about it. I left the Core not long before it came through. Seems other than 377501 first Bedford trip I haven't seen a single 377/5 deliveried yet & Im normally not far from it when it goes through!

 

[Aictos]

Happened to be a failed train between Old Street and Moorgate which is why there was so much disruption.

Did any get diverted via the Hertford loop?

By the guys, anyone seen the new GN timetables? There's more trains on my line which should be good news for the passengers and staff although it would be nice if the existing hourly service between Hertford and Stevenage could be boosted to a half hourly service if possible.

 

[jon0844]

Happened to be a failed train between Old Street and Moorgate which is why there was so much disruption.

My mobile hasn't been working (awaiting a new SIM card) so I didn't get the likely SMS messages from FCC to warn me - so having forgotten to check online, I walked down to Old Street to be told it was all buggered! A train was sitting at Old Street waiting to go to Moorgate, and wasn't going anywhere. It's one reason why I brought up with First the lack of any above-ground information for FCC at Old Street station (TfL really should consider adding a screen in the ticket hall for FCC). You won't know until you've gone down and reached the platform, and even then the screens only showed 'Delayed'.

I didn't ask staff at the time, but I wondered why they couldn't reverse the train from Old Street and cross over to run 'normally' - thus keeping some sort of service running and stopping us from having to use the tube to King's Cross (which meant I went from trying to get the train at Old Street for 1735 to getting one at 1822, which ended up being 20 minutes late - presumably enough for a Delay Repay claim if I could be bothered).

Are there any crossovers to allow this to happen, assuming there weren't many other trains stuck in the tunnels?

And, what do they actually do to get things going again if things back up?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Delay repay kick in after 30mins of delaying your jounery from your inital station (ie in this case Old Street) so what what you've wrote then you should get something.

 

[jon0844]

I figured that to be the case, but - to be honest - I rarely claim for things these days, especially if it's not the fault of the TOC (although if the train failed, perhaps it was down to bad maintenance!).

I got home over an hour late, but my life didn't end. In fact, it delayed me having to cut the front lawn which has really grown up while I was away on holiday for 3 weeks! Maybe I should be paying them!!

 

[Aictos]

It all depends what was the problem, if the unit wasn't able to move under it's own power then that's why, it could have gapped itself ie lose power from the 3rd rail which has happened before, anything could have happened.

As to the CIS screens, I have been told by management that some will be updated when possible mainly Welwyn Garden City, Hertford and I think Royston.

I agree with your post that a screen could be placed upstairs but then it comes down to who will pay for it, it's a TFL station but they might argue that since FCC want it, they should pay for it.

 

[jon0844]

They may argue that FCC should pay, but at the same time - they operate the station so surely they have a (moral) duty to provide passengers with information. You have screens for all London Underground lines, including the 'next train' indicators for the Northern Line. Surely, TfL see transport as a whole - so there's no excuse to ignore a service just because they don't directly run it.

Old Street isn't any old station either - considering FCC are based around the corner! Perhaps they have a screen by the front door for staff leaving (actually, they don't - but it would be quite sensible if they did!).

 

[mackenzie_blu]

It all depends what was the problem, if the unit wasn't able to move under it's own power then that's why, it could have gapped itself ie lose power from the 3rd rail which has happened before, anything could have happened.

As to the CIS screens, I have been told by management that some will be updated when possible mainly Welwyn Garden City, Hertford and I think Royston.

I agree with your post that a screen could be placed upstairs but then it comes down to who will pay for it, it's a TFL station but they might argue that since FCC want it, they should pay for it.

Interesting new displays have appeared at Core station on the TL side displaying Tube updates and FCC/TLP information on them which were paid by TfL. Even City Thameslink got a couple of these screens. Then again funding for stuff in the Core is a mix of DfT, TfL, FCC and NR funded stuff that may or may not have come from TLP pot.

The updated CIS system if I remember rightly is the one they have installed recently on the TL north stations and I believe there is a planned roll out of this system for all FCC stations. That way come 2012-15 when both sides of FCC are linked up we've used a joint system that's been working for a few years before it needs to be.

 

[Aictos]

Well from what I've heard, the GN might be looking at the TL's Funkwerk system as the company behind the existing GN system didn't get a look in and that came from the engineer who looks after the system.

Still, it would be nice to have just one system though out the entire company, makes it easier for maintenance.

But if it's one thing I do envy about the TL route is the fact that they should soon be running 377s, I take it that the 377s are being operated by FCC until the new Thameslink trains come into service in 2012?

I got the chance to travel behind one from Brighton this year and it was luxury compared to the 319s, they are long overdue for the route.

Would be nice to cascade the 317s/321s across to NXEA and let us have some 377s, about 18 in total which would allow for the replacement of all FCC 317s, the LM 321s to go to NXEA instead of us and also to finally replace the 365 that was involved in the Potters Bar crash.

Then replace the 313s with 378/2s, basically a 378 but with a lower roof profile like the 313s, the 313s going to MerseyRail to boost their services.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Well from what I've heard, the GN might be looking at the TL's Funkwerk system as the company behind the existing GN system didn't get a look in and that came from the engineer who looks after the system.

Still, it would be nice to have just one system though out the entire company, makes it easier for maintenance.

But if it's one thing I do envy about the TL route is the fact that they should soon be running 377s, I take it that the 377s are being operated by FCC until the new Thameslink trains come into service in 2012?

I got the chance to travel behind one from Brighton this year and it was luxury compared to the 319s, they are long overdue for the route.

Would be nice to cascade the 317s/321s across to NXEA and let us have some 377s, about 18 in total which would allow for the replacement of all FCC 317s, the LM 321s to go to NXEA instead of us and also to finally replace the 365 that was involved in the Potters Bar crash.

Then replace the 313s with 378/2s, basically a 378 but with a lower roof profile like the 313s, the 313s going to MerseyRail to boost their services.

I got the info that you guys are getting the TL funkwerk system from when I was chatting at the DMS course last month.

The 377/5 will likely be replaced around 2013 when the new NXEMU come into service hopefully. The GN side will be getting the same trains as well as your services will start running through the Core tho the current Moorgate trains will stay so likely be a Stevenage to Moorgate via the Loop.

I wonder, will the TL side get the new trains then the GN or both at the same time slowly replacing the current stock FCC use.

My guess would be the Bedford - Brighton, Peterborough & Cambridge/Kings Lynn services get the new fleet first then the St Albans/Luton - Loop and Moorgate services being the last to be replaced.

I love the Electrostars myself but down either side will get the current generation but if Bombarbier do win the either Thameslink order then we'll be getting the second generation Electrostar which is likely to be simlar interinally and maybe have a metro verison as well. We should roughly know by winter! That said both the IEP and recent 202 DMU orders have all been delayed in their announcements.

 

[Aictos]

Funkwerk heading our way, apart from all the problems noted with it seeing as it is a newly installed system - (no idea what was used before) what's it like?

Don't suppose you found out the dates (not set in concrete obviously)


As to the GN Moorgates, there's still the Welwyn to Moorgates to consider as well.

As to when the new stock comes in, I think it would be slowly both routes at the same time as then they could use the trains on either the GN or TL routes to bed them down and solve any teething problems.

Would also allow for staff training as well, they could introduce them on the TL first and allow the GN staff to have training sessions over there but who knows....

One thing I love to know is when the TVs will get fitted to our trains?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

From Laurie at UKmodernEMU's states

Report from a friend who went round Derby on Friday 25/4: 377 501/2/4/7 sent to SR, 508 nearly ready to go; various under construction identifiable up to 516.
Also on hand: 378 002 (ready to go?), 006/009/011 complete; various coaches for 008/010/013/ 014/015; 001 and 005 already sent south).

Funkwerk heading our way, apart from all the problems noted with it seeing as it is a newly installed system - (no idea what was used before) what's it like?

Don't suppose you found out the dates (not set in concrete obviously)


As to the GN Moorgates, there's still the Welwyn to Moorgates to consider as well.

As to when the new stock comes in, I think it would be slowly both routes at the same time as then they could use the trains on either the GN or TL routes to bed them down and solve any teething problems.

Would also allow for staff training as well, they could introduce them on the TL first and allow the GN staff to have training sessions over there but who knows....

One thing I love to know is when the TVs will get fitted to our trains?

Where to begin with Funkwerk. Er, I'll send you with a PM with that one.

I dont have any dates for the NXEMUs as thats still under wraps to the bidder is announced sometime this year tho the idea is the first 12 car unit in service on TL before the Olmypics and all units by 2015 December timetable change. I do have a better idea when the 377/5 are coming!

Hmmm well the staff training for the 377/5 was hit hard by the lack of actual trains to train staff on so don't hold your breath. that said if they are such a major step change as they're supposed to be then maybe they will get you guys over but its now been said that the link from TL to GN will be completed before the Olmypics but not in service so the new train may visit you.

As for the TV, Ive not yet seen one on a unit and the customers hate the idea! remember its FCC TV tho!

I forgot there was Welwyn trains. Question is how much would people miss Moorgate? Im guessing for the reaction of the TL customers its a major destination for your customers? And would City Thameslink be close enough for them? After all they're a short walk away from each other!

 

[jon0844]

Surely they can't/won't close the FPK-Moorgate route on the GN side. For a start, there will be no more trains serving Drayton Park and Essex Road! Secondly, FCC has its HQ by Old Street - so I doubt they'll want to get the 55/243 to Farringdon or a bus/tube to King's Cross!

I now work at Old Street, so I'd certainly not like seeing that line close either!

At the moment, I'm well chuffed with the new timetable. I finally got my service between the 0844 and 0924 from Hatfield (Thanks Elaine; well if you still worked there!) and the trains from Old Street and KGX to Hatfield will leave around 5 minutes later in the evening peak - which means I have more chance of getting them, and will therefore get home quicker!!

I never realised the timetable would be so perfect for me. I just hope it's good for a few others too.

As for the TV installation, I just got back from Hong Kong and the airport trains had TV there. A lot better than HEX, with bigger screens and a decent viewing angle so you don't see the screen in negative or similar from many seats. Besides the announcements when approaching stations, and safety announcements etc, the sound only came from small speakers in the headrests - and each passenger has a volume control on the seat in front. It's perfect.

The seats are also free of supports near the aisles, so you can store bags under your seat and not fill up the aisle with luggage. A very well thought out train (Adtranz) that could perhaps be used as a model for future rolling stock here.

 

[Aictos]

Moorgate is a major destination for our passengers on the GN, especially in the peaks - you can't get any more people into the 313s that were rostered even if you tried, standing only room is the norm.

Don't think they can extend the platforms on the line though to take 9 cars which would be good for the passengers.

Talking of which, it would be nice to see platforms on my line extended to 9 cars eventually....

I think FCC would have serious problems if they proposed closing the NCL at all.

Anyway, I saw a really interesting sight when I was on nights last year, 1 Class 317 and 2 Class 313s running as a ECS to Hornsey from Hertford due to the snow causing mucho disruption, the first time I've seen a 10 car EMU on the GN.