Guard closing the door before a passenger has got off.

[Baxenden Bank]

Indeed, we weren't there.

So how do we get from 'being a bit hard' on an old gent to then being harder on a 'typical youngster'?

I was turning it round to show neither age group is automatically innocent nor guilty.

 

[swt_passenger]

Of course, Platform Attendents could also solve this.

At up to 24 doors at the same time?

 

[Cantab26]

At up to 24 doors at the same time?

Something like this perhaps?

 

[ComUtoR]

The person trying to get on before they have let passengers get off is the one blocking the doorway.

Still, can't just say 'excuse me' Immovable object Vs Unstoppable force springs to mind. Good manners works both ways.

Passengers all act differently and they need to work together rather than be obstinate and cause more difficulties for each other.

 

[trainophile]

My point was that once several seconds have elapsed with no-one appearing near the door I am waiting it, it should be reasonable to assume that those who wished to alight have done so. To step on and then find half a dozen people still faffing around with their luggage, while making extremely slow progress towards the doors, is hardly the fault of the person boarding. We are not telepathic, and can't see round corners.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

My point was that once several seconds have elapsed with no-one appearing near the door I am waiting it, it should be reasonable to assume that those who wished to alight have done so. To step on and then find half a dozen people still faffing around with their luggage, while making extremely slow progress towards the doors, is hardly the fault of the person boarding. We are not telepathic, and can't see round corners.

I would agree with that. But what about the otherwise efficient exiter who is trapped behind the faffer? Are they allowed to barge past to ensure that they do get off the train before the doors close and lock? Been there, nearly overtravelled, because the faffer 'commenced exit procedure' well before the train arrived at the station.

 

[trainophile]

Yes, there's something to be said for having luggage storage racks in the middle of the carriage, then in such a scenario you can head for the door at the other end.

 

[SaveECRewards]

Some people think they should behave as if on a bus, and remain seated until the train is completely stopped, only then starting to gather up their stuff and amble towards the door.

Where do people do this? It would cause massive delays in London if people did that

 

[trainophile]

Where do people do this? It would cause massive delays in London if people did that

There's a poster earlier in this thread who said "I do this", just for one example.

 

[fowler9]

Halfway down a single 156 isn't that far, about 22 metres or so from the front door, and if you were spritely getting off aswell then the Guard might not be leaving enough time between opening and closing the doors. That said, if it had previously happened to the 'gentleman' recently, I'd expect him to have been a bit quicker off the mark.



It should really be accounted for in the timetable, but that means longer journey times that no-one wants. It's a bit like the minimum suggested interchange times at stations, there will always be people saying it's too long and others saying it's not long enough.



It seems a reasonable suggestion, but how do you judge who needs help and who doesn't? Sure some are obvious, but some aren't, and there are many people out there, some of whom who really would benefit from a bit of assistance, who would react badly to even the suggestion that they might need that assistance.



Sadly this is not restricted to the older generation. Many people leave things to the very last second without planning ahead. In one case I had, a passenger, with family and luggage, turned up for a train an hour after the last connection for their ferry, the last of the day apparently.



30 seconds is good if there is room in the timetable, sadly in some areas this is only provided at major stations, with smaller stations having arrival and departure timed either 30 seconds apart or at the same time.

You asked many questions and answered none. What is the answer. It took the length of time it took me to walk one car for him to get his bag out of the door. He then matched me down the platform to have a go at the guard.

 

[fowler9]

Regarding people faffing in the aisle I am aware of what is going on around me. I know where I am, I know where I have to get off. If you can't cope with that it is time to find another form of transport.

 

[goblinuser]

Some people think they should behave as if on a bus, and remain seated until the train is completely stopped, only then starting to gather up their stuff and amble towards the door.

Drives me mad when waiting to get on board, having left a few seconds with no-one in view who is apparently still intending to get off, only to be bumped into and glared at when I dare to step into the vestibule.

I find it more irritating when people get up and crowd around the doors awkwardly 20 minutes before the next station.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I find it more irritating when people get up and crowd around the doors awkwardly 20 minutes before the next station.

Best not travel on the Uckfield line then. Crowborough passengers have a strange habit if doing this. Some getting up as the train leaves Edenbridge to stand by the doors that will be nearest the steps at Crowborough. Bonkers behaviour

 

[Antman]

Where do people do this? It would cause massive delays in London if people did that

Because many times it is not a smooth stop, but a sudden jerk. I could speculate why, but I won't.

Anyway if you are a little unsteady on your feet that isn't very helpful. So far more sensible to stay seated until the train, tube, or bus has come to a halt.

Now if some people don't like that, sorry but tough.

And as for the risk of being carried on, sure there is a problem *IF* the train company has not planned their schedule correctly and trained their staff.

 

[bb21]

Good manners works both ways.

Evidently not, to some sections of the population.

The dawdler who causes a long break in passenger flow, then proceeds to block the way of those who have no telepathic powers and dared to try and board in an efficient manner is infinitely worse.

As you say, a simple "excuse me" is all that takes to resolve a situation like this, yet some sections of the population appear to allow self-righteousness take priority in such a trivial matter.

Anyway if you are a little unsteady on your feet that isn't very helpful. So far more sensible to stay seated until the train, tube, or bus has come to a halt.

Now if some people don't like that, sorry but tough.

Nothing wrong with people who are a little slow or infirm for whatever reason. People who do not plan ahead and prepare to disembark in good time are annoying, but hardly the end of the world.

Most would object to your elaborated actions that "I will just stand in the doorway until you move out of the way." Your actions are part of the problem. Your solution for a potential problem seems to be "escalate it" rather than "resolve it efficiently". They are immature and unnecessary.

If people do not see anyone disembark for a few seconds, it is entirely reasonable to assume no one else wished to do so.

Train companies must expect to carry a wide variety of customers, and you have a pretty selfish attitude if you think elderly and disabled people should not travel by train.

Your attitude going by this post is hardly helpful, arguably worse.

 

[otomous]

Because many times it is not a smooth stop, but a sudden jerk. I could speculate why, but I won't.

Anyway if you are a little unsteady on your feet that isn't very helpful. So far more sensible to stay seated until the train, tube, or bus has come to a halt.

Now if some people don't like that, sorry but tough.

And as for the risk of being carried on, sure there is a problem *IF* the train company has not planned their schedule correctly and trained their staff.

Add 30s to every stop and you get 5m delay on a 10 stop journey. That means possibly missing slots at junctions, termini etc, which could cause other trains and subsequent trains using the original stock getting a ripple effect of delays. That's not the train company not doing its job, that's the constraints of the infrastructure that for historical, social and political reasons, we are stuck with. Fewer trains or longer dwells, which is better and more likely to get people out of cars on to trains?

It is not possible for a driver or a guard to know what every person on the train or platform is going to do, or what speed they are capable of doing. If everyone is on or off and the platform is clear do I wait a bit longer just in case?

Cameras INSIDE every doorway as well as outside is a fantasy. As are Japanese style pushers. We aren't even willing to pay for guards, ticket office or platform staff in the U.K.

In return for the large capacity of a train as a means of transport the compromise is that passengers cannot get personal service. A bus is relatively small and easily manageable. Flyers travel in a bloc, marshalled from plane to plane. To be brutal if someone is that unsteady, they should be finding the guard or booking assisted travel on a DOO train, even talking to the driver. What else can we do?

 

[roversfan2001]

Rather a similar situation to the "the doors wouldn't open" brigade, the reason usually being because they didn't actually manage to get there until the train was being dispactched.

Or sometimes the lights surrounding the door open button don't light up, and by the time you realise that they're broken the door has locked again

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Or sometimes the lights surrounding the door open button don't light up, and by the time you realise that they're broken the door has locked again

That's not as much of a problem now that all doors afaik by 2020 are required to have doors unlocked sounders unless both the sounder and the light both break at the same time

 

[30909]

Best not travel on the Uckfield line then. Crowborough passengers have a strange habit if doing this. Some getting up as the train leaves Edenbridge to stand by the doors that will be nearest the steps at Crowborough. Bonkers behaviour

Not the only route, Petersfield passengers on the "fasts" some leave their seats as the train departs Haslemere with 10 minutes journey or passes Liphook only to be chucked around as the train thrashes down the reverse curved bank at 75-80 mph. Old was not always better but in the day of the slammers the first passenger who was by the door had the window down a minute before arrival with their hand on the handle as the carriage passed the platform ramp. Unloading was quick, loading slower and the possible delay was last passenger failing to close the door.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You asked many questions and answered none. What is the answer. It took the length of time it took me to walk one car for him to get his bag out of the door. He then matched me down the platform to have a go at the guard.

I don't believe is an answer that suits everyone. There will always be people saying things can be improved and some one else disagreeing.

 

[Antman]

Still, can't just say 'excuse me' Immovable object Vs Unstoppable force springs to mind. Good manners works both ways.

It certainly does.

In the situation of someone getting off and someone getting on, if the person gets on before everyone has got off then their aim is met. Meanwhile the people getting off, as has been mentioned here, are at risk of being taken on to the next stop. Therefore it seems good manners that the person boarding makes it as easy as possible to allow those who want to leave to do so. And if this means stepping out of the way, or even back onto the platform, that is what is needed. Even if they step back onto the platform, the driver/guard will have seen them and will not allow the train to leave whilst someone is trying to get on.

Add 30s to every stop and you get 5m delay on a 10 stop journey. That means possibly missing slots at junctions, termini etc, which could cause other trains and subsequent trains using the original stock getting a ripple effect of delays.

You don't get the delays you suggest, because the train company will have recognised they are serving customers with a range of different needs, so the 'wait' after the doors have opened will have been designed to allow for seated passengers to get up and leave the train.

Of course this means the train drivers also have to follow their training and not try and cut short the 'wait', as doing so would obviously impact on the customers on board.

 

[centraluser]

There is a similar problem at Bicester Village, probably cultural, with overseas visitors. Despite pre-arrival announcements being made in three languages, very few visiting shoppers make any attempt to leave their seats until the the train has come to a stand. This leads to extended dwell times.

It's the complete opposite when the same visitors come to make the return journey. Impoliteness would be an understatement - passengers alighting from the Oxford direction often have to develop very sharp elbows and loud voices. On some services to Marylebone, if you are not standing by the door when the train comes to a stand at Bicester Village, there is a real possibility of you ending up in London!

 

[trainophile]

Possibly a driver may need to try to make up a bit of time lost by a previous delay, so will not sit and wait on the off chance that another passenger who hasn't appeared yet is still making their way to the door.

As for standing in the doorway thus blocking it, this is a non-argument, as if someone is already in the doorway then obviously boarders are aware of them and are not going to barge past them (well except for the very few rude ones, but that is a different issue to this thread).

The problem is when the door and vestibule appear clear, so you board only to find a person, or often group of people, still half way down the aisle or blocking the aisle at the luggage areas. In which case the person who has boarded will simply wait out of the way in the vestibule until they can get to a seat - so what's the problem, and why the need to stand in the doorway to make some sort of point?

The turnaround on ATW at Man Picc is a classic example. I have boarded an apparently clear train and found families still packing up their picnic at a table, and been sworn at for not allowing people to leave!

 

[Antman]

Possibly a driver may need to try to make up a bit of time lost by a previous delay, so will not sit and wait on the off chance that another passenger who hasn't appeared yet is still making their way to the door.

Unless the driver has CCTV showing them what is going on in every carriage they should not assume there are no customers needing to get off and cut short the wait which has been designed to allow all customers to get off safely.

I would hope this type of thing is monitored and performance feedback given to drivers who fail to keep to the designed wait time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a similar problem at Bicester Village, probably cultural, with overseas visitors. Despite pre-arrival announcements being made in three languages, very few visiting shoppers make any attempt to leave their seats until the the train has come to a stand. This leads to extended dwell times.

It's the complete opposite when the same visitors come to make the return journey. Impoliteness would be an understatement - passengers alighting from the Oxford direction often have to develop very sharp elbows and loud voices. On some services to Marylebone, if you are not standing by the door when the train comes to a stand at Bicester Village, there is a real possibility of you ending up in London!

Could this relate to trains in Japan and China (the origin of most of these visitors) being much more supervised than the European "sort yourself out and ask staff if you get stuck" model? Often throws Americans off a bit too.

 

[otomous]

It certainly does.

In the situation of someone getting off and someone getting on, if the person gets on before everyone has got off then their aim is met. Meanwhile the people getting off, as has been mentioned here, are at risk of being taken on to the next stop. Therefore it seems good manners that the person boarding makes it as easy as possible to allow those who want to leave to do so. And if this means stepping out of the way, or even back onto the platform, that is what is needed. Even if they step back onto the platform, the driver/guard will have seen them and will not allow the train to leave whilst someone is trying to get on.



You don't get the delays you suggest, because the train company will have recognised they are serving customers with a range of different needs, so the 'wait' after the doors have opened will have been designed to allow for seated passengers to get up and leave the train.

Of course this means the train drivers also have to follow their training and not try and cut short the 'wait', as doing so would obviously impact on the customers on board.

I'm afraid you are mistaken. The train company works to the constraints of its network and its franchise. A sleepy branch line may be able to accomodate longer dwell times. Inter city trains probably have a fair amount of time allowed. But metro style operations, such as the one I drive for, do not have that luxury. We are told to allow 20 seconds dwell and to start dispatch proceedings 30 seconds before departure ie doors may close in that 30 seconds. Due to the congested nature of the network we are lucky to have that time at all in the peaks. Even off peak our schedules show us arriving and leaving in the same minute. We often have six minutes to change ends in a 12 car train. I can assure you any extra time incurred en route is NEVER made up and has a knock on effect until there is enough recovery time. Unfortunately unless there is direct intervention ie platform staff providing assistance via ramp or helping hand, there is no guarantee of the necessary dwell time to suit everyone - that's a sad truth.

 

[otomous]

Unless the driver has CCTV showing them what is going on in every carriage they should not assume there are no customers needing to get off and cut short the wait which has been designed to allow all customers to get off safely.

I would hope this type of thing is monitored and performance feedback given to drivers who fail to keep to the designed wait time.

It is not a matter of training as you keep suggesting. We are told doors open 20 seconds. If we see someone taking longer, we wait. If we cannot see them, how long do we wait? Your suggestion would bring London's commuter rail to a standstill in the peaks.

 

[bb21]

It certainly does.

In the situation of someone getting off and someone getting on, if the person gets on before everyone has got off then their aim is met. Meanwhile the people getting off, as has been mentioned here, are at risk of being taken on to the next stop. Therefore it seems good manners that the person boarding makes it as easy as possible to allow those who want to leave to do so. And if this means stepping out of the way, or even back onto the platform, that is what is needed. Even if they step back onto the platform, the driver/guard will have seen them and will not allow the train to leave whilst someone is trying to get on.

All I see here is "you do this and they do this", not "I can do this to help".

Both ways indeed. :roll:

 

[Shell]

Honestly speaking, if a person can't make it out of the door in the required amount of time upon the train coming to a halt, perhaps they should be booking assistance? The rail operators already have that system in place to accommodate people with impairments that require accommodations to use the railway.

 

[313103]

Today is just a prime example of how dangerous passengers can be to themselves, i was dispatching a HST i have to start the process by walking from coach A to coach F closing any doors left open. A gentleman got out of coach A got his bicycle and shut the TGS door so i continued to walk to coach F for dispatch duties checking and closing each door and making sure no one wants to get off, got to coach F gave ready to start gave second dispatch and then someone in coach C decides to try and open the doors. So despite being in the platform for two minutes it was obviously not enough for this lady. So i now have to stop the train and go back and check the door, and restart dispatch procedure, by the time the train departed it had been delayed by three minutes and spent five minutes in the platform. How long do people actually want a train to be spent in a platform?