Mk4 sets = Would it work in wales?

[Prestige15]

Just curious, As far as we know, VTEC is to keep 7 sets and Alliance Rail/Grand Central may take a number of them for its London - Blackpool, I would expect 5/6 would be taken.

For the remaining sets, would it work in wales using a class 67 hauling 5/6 MK4 plus DVT on long distance such as Cardiff - Manchester/Holyhead?

 

[najaB]

For the remaining sets, would it work in wales using a class 67 hauling 5/6 MK4 plus DVT on long distance such as Cardiff - Manchester/Holyhead?

From a technical perspective, yes it would work. Would it make financial sense? Answer unclear.

 

[47802]

think the Welsh franchise needs to look at a new fleet of DMU's either for the Cardiff - Manchester/Holyhead or for say North Wales allowing more 175's for the Cardiff route which could be refurbished and upgraded. I guess if the financial numbers made sense of operating on electric between Newport and Cardiff and Crewe and Manchester you could look at a Bi-mode option.

No doubt people will be trotting out HST short sets, as well as the Mk4 option suggested, but they look like short term to mid term solutions really which might with lead times into the 2020's now likely for new trains. It would also seem to me that new franchises now need to start considering 15x replacement, particularly with electrification now largely binned.

 

[CosherB]

Sadly, the options for the cascade of Mk4s seem to be dwindling to almost none. Maybe Eversholt will end up having to sell and export the whole fleet to get any further use from them.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just curious, As far as we know, VTEC is to keep 7 sets and Alliance Rail/Grand Central may take a number of them for its London - Blackpool, I would expect 5/6 would be taken.
For the remaining sets, would it work in wales using a class 67 hauling 5/6 MK4 plus DVT on long distance such as Cardiff - Manchester/Holyhead?

I think the Alliance service to Blackpool only needs 4 sets (3 in service and one spare).
Do 67s/68s work with MK4 DVTs? Probably not, without mods. They need to be push-pull.
MK4s would just be another LHCS stop-gap when the operator really wants DMUs/bi-modes, although it might save PRM upgrades of MK3s (doors, toilets etc).
If TPE's displaced 185s are available, I would think they would be preferred.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the DVTs could be converted to work with diesel locomotives, they could use say 5-car sets on the North Wales Coast (and one on the WAG), freeing up DMUs for other services. Arriva aren't shy of LHCS (maybe that's a DB thing, as DB still like their locos even on regional services).

 

[squizzler]

Would LHCS be appropriate for the Aberystwyth services? Long distances between stops, low frequency, often in need of extra capacity.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

With talk of Liverpool-Norwich splitting at Nottingham and going over to TPE it is possible TPE may retain more 185s for these services. That is mere speculation tho, nothing concrete has been confirmed.

A 67 can talk to a modified Mk3 DVT so given the TDM equipment in a Mk4 DVT is the same then the adaptations needed to convert TDM to AAR will already be known. So yes it can be done is one thing, but will it be done is altogether another matter. There's still 20 mk4 takes unaccounted for so interesting times lie ahead

 

[47802]

If the DVTs could be converted to work with diesel locomotives, they could use say 5-car sets on the North Wales Coast (and one on the WAG), freeing up DMUs for other services. Arriva aren't shy of LHCS (maybe that's a DB thing, as DB still like their locos even on regional services).

They wern't shy over Loco Hauled because there wasn't much else available, and Arriva may not be running the next franchise.

 

[CosherB]

It could be a DB-Arriva solution to use idle 67s with these Mk4 sets. Be nice to see it happen, but I doubt it.

 

[sd0733]

If this did happen would there actually be a reason to swap the DVT at all? Could a mk3 dvt 'talk' to a 67 through mark 4 coaches? IIRC the mark 3 and 4 DVTs were all built at around the same time anyway so apart from in looks there isn't a real difference in age.
I've no idea how TDM or its relatives work so may be a stupid question!

 

[cjmillsnun]

If this did happen would there actually be a reason to swap the DVT at all? Could a mk3 dvt 'talk' to a 67 through mark 4 coaches? IIRC the mark 3 and 4 DVTs were all built at around the same time anyway so apart from in looks there isn't a real difference in age.
I've no idea how TDM or its relatives work so may be a stupid question!

Yes they could, but the difference between the Mk4 profile and Mk3 profile would make it look weird.

 

[CommuterPigeon]

Would LHCS be appropriate for the Aberystwyth services? Long distances between stops, low frequency, often in need of extra capacity.

Not really. They split/join at Machynlleth to allow a through service between Pwllheli and Shrewsbury/Birmingham. They'd also need to fit ERTMS to the locos as there are only 2 (I think) that have it fitted for Charter and Network Rail purposes.

The service is likely to go hourly between Aberystwyth and Shrewsbury in the new franchise so that should provide enough capacity.

 

[sd0733]

Yes they could, but the difference between the Mk4 profile and Mk3 profile would make it look weird.

Yes would look a bit strange but in practice it could lower the costs of something like that taking place if its just a relatively short term sticking plaster.

 

[Darandio]

Yes they could, but the difference between the Mk4 profile and Mk3 profile would make it look weird.

Of course if it was a viable proposition to provide capacity, the above wouldn't matter whatsoever.

 

[6Gman]

Surely what the Welsh franchise needs is a (lighter than 175) flexible fleet to take over the bulk of its long-distance work?

New units, not some bodged up arrangement involving LHCS, HSTs, 185s or 442s!

 

[randyrippley]

Mk4 sets + class 88 would be ideal for Manchester - Barrow/Windermere and maybe Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh via WCML.
Far better comfort than the DMU/EMU fleet currently running north of Preston

 

[broadgage]

It COULD be done, but seems unlikely in practice.
There seems to be a widely held view in the rail industry that loco hauled coaches are old fashioned and only to be used in exceptional circumstances.

The future is DMUs, preferable shorter, with minimum facilities, and reduced legroom.

In the 1960s it believed that all would be wonderful "once we have got rid of steam" As that was achieved nearly 50 years ago, the new mantra seems to be that all will be wonderful "once we have got rid of loco hauled trains"

 

[gareth950]

The future is DMUs, preferable shorter, with minimum facilities, and reduced legroom.

I'd argue that the opposite of this is what is needed on a regional express / intercity service such as Cardiff - Manchester / Holyhead on the Marches.

The DMUs on the route certaimly can't get any shorter! Virgin Super Voyager style services are needed on the Marches; 4 - 5 car DMUs with a small walk-up refreshment shop and certainly not with any reduced legroom to what is provided on the 175s currently.

 

[Chester1]

Surely what the Welsh franchise needs is a (lighter than 175) flexible fleet to take over the bulk of its long-distance work?

New units, not some bodged up arrangement involving LHCS, HSTs, 185s or 442s!

It COULD be done, but seems unlikely in practice.
There seems to be a widely held view in the rail industry that loco hauled coaches are old fashioned and only to be used in exceptional circumstances.

The future is DMUs, preferable shorter, with minimum facilities, and reduced legroom.

In the 1960s it believed that all would be wonderful "once we have got rid of steam" As that was achieved nearly 50 years ago, the new mantra seems to be that all will be wonderful "once we have got rid of loco hauled trains"

I'd argue that the opposite of this is what is needed on a regional express / intercity service such as Cardiff - Manchester / Holyhead on the Marches.

The DMUs on the route certaimly can't get any shorter! Virgin Super Voyager style services are needed on the Marches; 4 - 5 car DMUs with a small walk-up refreshment shop and certainly not with any reduced legroom to what is provided on the 175s currently.

In theory you are all correct but I will believe that the W&B franchise will get a large order of new rolling stock only once it is actually ordered! The network will be awash with spare Mark IIIs and IVs soon and short of DMUs. Not every franchise will get new trains, some will have to make do with short formed loco hauled sets. They wont run on the Cambrian though because that would require installing ETMS which would be a waste of time because it has been installed on all 24 of ATW 158s.

 

[IanXC]

With talk of Liverpool-Norwich splitting at Nottingham and going over to TPE it is possible TPE may retain more 185s for these services. That is mere speculation tho, nothing concrete has been confirmed.

And/or the mystical third Hope Valley express service of course.

 

[47802]

My experience of 175;s is the that legroom is generally ok, and I with a refurb and possibly adding business class to the 3 car units along with allowing more 175's to be cascaded to the route then they are perfectly good enough for the route. Concentrate the 3 Car units on the routes with the busiest services strengthend with an additional 2 car as required. Yes you could use MK4 Loco Hauled you could also use HST short sets as per Scotrail which despite their age might be the better option, but a new fleet of DMU's either for the route or allowing more 175's to be cascaded onto the route might be more cost effective.

 

[Clansman]

What Wales needs is a wholesale replacement of most of its rolling stock, if not all.

Replace the 142/143/150/153s with 3 or 4 car DMUs of similar specifications to London Midland's 172s, but obviously with slightly better seating in terms of tables and armrests. As well as the ability to accommodate a pantograph and bi-mode running if needed in future.

Shove the 175s on the rural routes, and replace the 158s with 5 car bi-mode units for use on long distance routes, with a small first class section, decent seating and luggage provisions, and a shop section if required. Could be similar specs to Ireland's Class 22000s (minus the guage ).

No LHCS, no 185s, no 442s, no 319 flex, no PEPs ... Just new rolling stock that can come in, do the job, and do it well for the next 30-40 years.

 

[PHILIPE]

What Wales needs is a wholesale replacement of most of its rolling stock, if not all.

Replace the 142/143/150/153s with 3 or 4 car DMUs of similar specifications to London Midland's 172s, but obviously with slightly better seating in terms of tables and armrests. As well as the ability to accommodate a pantograph and bi-mode running if needed in future.

Shove the 175s on the rural routes, and replace the 158s with 5 car bi-mode units for use on long distance routes, with a small first class section, decent seating and luggage provisions, and a shop section if required. Could be similar specs to Ireland's Class 22000s (minus the guage ).

No LHCS, no 185s, no 442s, no 319 flex, no PEPs ... Just new rolling stock that can come in, do the job, and do it well for the next 30-40 years.

All, apart from 3, of the 158 Diagrams work on the Cambrian and are the only units that can work that route due to ERMTS, being the only units fitted.

 

[Clansman]

All, apart from 3, of the 158 Diagrams work on the Cambrian and are the only units that can work that route due to ERMTS, being the only units fitted.

Fit ERMTS onto the 175s?

 

[CosherB]

All, apart from 3, of the 158 Diagrams work on the Cambrian and are the only units that can work that route due to ERMTS, being the only units fitted.

Hardly a showstopper is it?

 

[DarloRich]

Just curious, As far as we know, VTEC is to keep 7 sets and Alliance Rail/Grand Central may take a number of them for its London - Blackpool, I would expect 5/6 would be taken.

For the remaining sets, would it work in wales using a class 67 hauling 5/6 MK4 plus DVT on long distance such as Cardiff - Manchester/Holyhead?

it could be done. I doubt it will be. ( sadly - as i think the Mkiv is very nice to travel on and has life left in it)

 

[PHILIPE]

Fit ERMTS onto the 175s?

Why go to all the expense when there is a reasonably good fleet already fitted.

 

[Clansman]

Why go to all the expense when there is a reasonably good fleet already fitted.

The 158s aren't going to last forever. It's going to happen at some point (obviously), either through cascaded stock or newly built rolling stock.

15 more years at best.

 

[daikilo]

it could be done. I doubt it will be. ( sadly - as i think the Mkiv is very nice to travel on and has life left in it)

This be is one of the paradoxes of the current TOC+ROSCO structure where the TOC does not have to be able to "afford" the debt of new stock, only the operating costs and lease payments. It is quite possible that even if the Mk3 or Mk4 stock was provided free of charge, the total cost over the life of the franchise would still favour new build.

Now, if the ROSCOs got together and refused to finance new stock things might change ... until a new ROSCO appeared.