Will Crossrail2 Be Built In The Next 40 Years?

[HSTEd]

I have seen few options that realistic relieve the capacity crunch out of Waterloo for significantly less than Crossrail 2 - which also solves the oncoming overwhelming of existing Euston travel options by HS2

 

[The Ham]

I have seen few options that realistic relieve the capacity crunch out of Waterloo for significantly less than Crossrail 2 - which also solves the oncoming overwhelming of existing Euston travel options by HS2

Are there any publicly available details of these options?

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there any publicly available details of these options?

The alternatives to increase Waterloo capacity if CR2 is not built, are all well described in the NR Wessex route study (2015), it covers both scenarios on an either or basis. As I've posted before they don't do both CR2 and 5-tracking, it is one or the other.

Can be quickly summarised as:

infrastructure works to provide a 5 track main fast railway from Hampton Court Junction (Surbiton) to Waterloo. It would operate with two main fast lines in the peak flow direction, using a reversible centre track of three. Can apparently be built within the existing NR boundary. Requirement at Wimbledon to remove the trams and move Thameslink over to the other side of the island.

This allows more trains to stay on the fast lines, and therefore more stoppers to run on the slow lines.

Then 12 car platforms on all main suburban routes, with major work required at Waterloo in addition to what is happening this summer.

There's far too much to put in a single post, but most of this subject has been covered in previous threads anyway.

https://16cbgt3sbwr8204sf92da3xxc5m...2016/11/Wessex-Route-Study-Final-210815-1.pdf

 

[The Ham]

The alternatives to increase Waterloo capacity if CR2 is not built, are all well described in the NR Wessex route study (2015), it covers both scenarios on an either or basis. As I've posted before they don't do both CR2 and 5-tracking, it is one or the other.

Can be quickly summarised as:

infrastructure works to provide a 5 track main fast railway from Hampton Court Junction (Surbiton) to Waterloo. It would operate with two main fast lines in the peak flow direction, using a reversible centre track of three. Can apparently be built within the existing NR boundary. Requirement at Wimbledon to remove the trams and move Thameslink over to the other side of the island.

This allows more trains to stay on the fast lines, and therefore more stoppers to run on the slow lines.

Then 12 car platforms on all main suburban routes, with major work required at Waterloo in addition to what is happening this summer.

There's far too much to put in a single post, but most of this subject has been covered in previous threads anyway.

https://16cbgt3sbwr8204sf92da3xxc5m...2016/11/Wessex-Route-Study-Final-210815-1.pdf

That doesn't help Euston, which was mentioned in HSTEd's post.

 

[edwin_m]

That doesn't help Euston, which was mentioned in HSTEd's post.

The big question here is whether the extra benefits of CR2 to the Waterloo suburban lines, Euston, and Liverpool Street suburban lines justify its extra cost over the fifth track. We'll probably end up with the typical British compromise of building the fifth track then realising a few years later that we need to build the tunnel anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

The big question here is whether the extra benefits of CR2 to the Waterloo suburban lines, Euston, and Liverpool Street suburban lines justify its extra cost over the fifth track. We'll probably end up with the typical British compromise of building the fifth track then realising a few years later that we need to build the tunnel anyway.

I think it would be fair to say that the cost of the 'fifth' track project is not properly understood. Notwithstanding what the route study says, I don't see how the stretch from Clapham to Surbiton can be built without land take and/or some rather disruptive civil engineering work.

Besides, the fifth track would do precisely nothing for main suburban capacity.

 

[The Ham]

I think it would be fair to say that the cost of the 'fifth' track project is not properly understood. Notwithstanding what the route study says, I don't see how the stretch from Clapham to Surbiton can be built without land take and/or some rather disruptive civil engineering work.

Besides, the fifth track would do precisely nothing for main suburban capacity.

...and that's kind of the point CR2 would provide most services in the SWT area with the scope to increase their frequency by 50% or more, for instance:
- Basingstoke stoppers 3tph rather than 2tph
- Portsmouth services 6tph rather than 4tph
- Salisbury services 3tph rather than 2tph
- New Maldern 16tph rather than 10tph
- Hampton Court 4tph rather than 2tph

With many of the rest seeing a 33% increase in frequency, for instance:
- Epson 8 rather than 6

 

[Olaf]

And you do not make the poor rich by making the rich poor. You make the poor rich by making the rich absolutely filthy stinking rich. Sorry OT. But I do think there is a case for investing in transport links for the less well off areas to give them a chance to lift themselves out of poverty. Good transport links equals mobility and a chance to work hard etc.

Exactly what is happening, but no need for expenditure for the sake of it, solutions do not need to be gold-plated, and the investment has to have an adequate return on the funds.

 

[Olaf]

I don't doubt that London will benefit from HS2, but at the expense of other cities is quite a bold claim.

Unfortunately it is not. Similar schemes have lead to agglomeration around the principle centre at the expense of urban centres along the route(s).

HS2 will lead to further concentration of premium paying jobs in London, with lower margin businesses benefiting from relocation to the provinces like Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds.

There will be a stratification of benefits with lower margin businesses moving to lower cost centres accessible from the new services. These dynamics are likely to work at multiple levels in different ways at each of the stops along the route. Relocated businesses will benefit local economies as well, but the expectation is that London will gain the most at the top-end.

Expectations are that Manchester and Leeds will also cannibalise economic activity from secondary locations on the route, and from those urban centres not on the route. However, that is the desired outcome given that it economic benefits of HS2 will arise from agglomeration affects.

 

[Olaf]

Originally Posted by Olaf: "raised on one of the bleakest housing estates in a northern city and climbed through the system through my own efforts."

rebmcr;3033150: "Me too, but I didn't sell my soul along the way.

Neither did I; The difference is that I engaged with reality and learnt to stand on my own two feet as they say.

Originally Posted by Olaf: "If people want to improve their lot, they can do that through hard work."

rebmcr;3033150: No, that's a fallacy. For everyone who works hard and succeeds, there are others who work just as hard and fail. We got lucky.

From Taylor Swift's point of view, anyone who works hard will become an international superstar, and those who don't must be lazy spongers...

Sorry, but it is n't. If you do not have any luck, make it. If fail the first time, pick yourself up and start again.

P.S.
Who is "Taylor Swift"? Is it a mis-quote from Jonathan Swift, or to SWIFT?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Exactly what is happening, but no need for expenditure for the sake of it, solutions do not need to be gold-plated, and the investment has to have an adequate return on the funds.

I totally agree

 

[Olaf]

Deleted.

 

[The Ham]

In answer to the OP, Yes. Next thread....