TPE tickets are not valid on the TPE train with a TPE conductor

[northwichcat]

I've seen a post on another forum where someone has said they were on a Northern service being operated by a TPE train. A guard in TPE uniform came through and said to another passenger something along the lines of "This ticket is only valid on TPE services. You'll have to buy a new one."

I was on the Northern (or is it TPE) service from Manchester Airport to Blackpool the other day. I saw two passengers get charged penalty fares for using TPE only tickets on a Northern service by a guard in full TPE uniform. No wonder passengers get confused!

Serves them right. Why would anyone pay to ride on a throughbred and then jump on a donkey instead?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've seen a post on another forum where someone has said they were on a Northern service being operated by a TPE train. A guard in TPE uniform came through and said to another passenger something along the lines of "This ticket is only valid on TPE services. You'll have to buy a new one."

This might technically be true, but unless they plaster the trains with "on hire to Northern" window stickers (why don't they?) enforcing it is rather unreasonable.

 

[cuccir]

I agree with Bletchleyite's assessment. If a train shows up covered in TransPennineExpress branding, it is reasonable to presume that a TransPennineExpress only ticket is valid on it, unless there are some extremely clear instructions to the contrary.

 

[bb21]

Were there station announcements?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The last faux-TPE I was on was the Windermere, and the on-board PIS clearly said "TransPennine Express service to Oxenholme Lake District". If the PIS can't be fixed to not say that (just delete the TPE file or replace it with an empty file should do it) then it should be switched off.

Station announcements alone are NOT enough. It wouldn't be hard to put "on hire to Northern, TransPennine Express Only tickets are not valid" on a paper label on every set of doors.

 

[bb21]

The last faux-TPE I was on was the Windermere, and the on-board PIS clearly said "TransPennine Express service to Oxenholme Lake District". If the PIS can't be fixed to not say that (just delete the TPE file or replace it with an empty file should do it) then it should be switched off.

Station announcements alone are NOT enough. It wouldn't be hard to put "on hire to Northern, TransPennine Express Only tickets are not valid" on a paper label on every set of doors.

I don't disagree.

They should just get rid of this ridiculous situation, or accept that it makes a mockery of the company.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's yet another manifestation of Northern's sloppy, passenger-hostile attitude, as exemplified by the Manc Picc contracted RPIs and the unwillingness to pay to install some TVMs and run a proper statutory Penalty Fare system as other TOCs seem to manage to do properly.

Sadly it seems getting shut of Alex Hynes has not solved the problem. Pity they rather than ITV couldn't have poached Carolyn McCall from sleasyJet!

 

[bb21]

I won't quite go so far but this on the face of it this definitely does not sound smart.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Presumably on the Windermere route? Are there TPE only fares on that route, or did they perhaps have an advance ticket and therefore be on the wrong train.

 

[northwichcat]

There are TPE only day return fares for Manchester to Preston. I don't know if that was the ticket held or not though as the post didn't give any more details other than the ticket was TPE only.

 

[Starmill]

I once had a Northern Only ticket and jumped on a 156 that said Northern on the side. I was surprised to discover that it was a TPE service at the time. It had been running late so it wasn't at their usual time, and a single 156 was almost never used by them. The guard didn't insist on me paying for a new ticket but he said it wasn't valid and I'd have to pay again next time.

I would suggest that the issue is more with the conductor's attitude.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There has long been an issue with staff attitude on TPE with a small but significant number of staff. It seemed to stem from a top-down corporate arrogance. I did think "new TPE" was looking to address that, though.

 

[Harpers Tate]

The bigger problem here is the very existence of {operator only} tickets other than Advances (which are so by definition); fragmentation (or non-integration) of The Railway.

 

[najaB]

The bigger problem here is the very existence of {operator only} tickets other than Advances (which are so by definition); fragmentation (or non-integration) of The Railway.

Inter-available tickets are nearly always available - but at a higher price, of course

 

[Lemmy99uk]

It's yet another manifestation of Northern's sloppy, passenger-hostile attitude, as exemplified by the Manc Picc contracted RPIs and the unwillingness to pay to install some TVMs and run a proper statutory Penalty Fare system as other TOCs seem to manage to do properly.

Sadly it seems getting shut of Alex Hynes has not solved the problem. Pity they rather than ITV couldn't have poached Carolyn McCall from sleasyJet!

Insrtead of jumping up and down and banging your fist on the table, maybe you should read the committed obligations section of the franchise agreement.

Northern will be installing HUNDREDS of TVMs on their stations as per their contract with DaFT.

Much as you might like it to be true, you can't buy a job lot from Tesco and plug them straight in. There will be a huge amount of civils to be completed just to get power to the damn things.

 

[Haywain]

Northern will be installing HUNDREDS of TVMs on their stations as per their contract with DaFT.

Much as you might like it to be true, you can't buy a job lot from Tesco and plug them straight in. There will be a huge amount of civils to be completed just to get power to the damn things.

To say nothing of potential planning consents, security measures, staffing agreements and then physical installations, where two machines in one shift at the same location would be seen as good going.

 

[scrapy]

Insrtead of jumping up and down and banging your fist on the table, maybe you should read the committed obligations section of the franchise agreement.

Northern will be installing HUNDREDS of TVMs on their stations as per their contract with DaFT.

Much as you might like it to be true, you can't buy a job lot from Tesco and plug them straight in. There will be a huge amount of civils to be completed just to get power to the damn things.

Off topic now but 1st new style TVM now in place at Eccleston Park. Bases and connections now in at several stations between Liverpool and Wigan. Will also be going in at all stations Wigan to Blackpool North (including Salwick) by September. Ticket barriers now in at St Helens Central. Liverpool to Blackpool will be a trial for Northern's first proper penalty fares route starting April 2018 if DFT agree.

Northern's franchise agreement requires them to make all reasonable endeavours to have 60% of the network penalty fares routes by end of 2019.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well that is good news.

 

[northwichcat]

Well that is good news.

Provided that Northern install an adequate number of TVMs accepting both card and cash (unless the railways become card only nationally whether buying from a ticket office or machine) and they replace the card only Parkeon machines which are temperamental with card transactions. Otherwise they'll probably end up charging a load of penalty fare notices to people who genuinely tried to buy a ticket and couldn't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Provided that Northern install an adequate number of TVMs accepting both card and cash (unless the railways become card only nationally whether buying from a ticket office or machine) and they replace the card only Parkeon machines which are temperamental with card transactions. Otherwise they'll probably end up charging a load of penalty fare notices to people who genuinely tried to buy a ticket and couldn't.

There is that, true. I wonder how long it will be before the railway could say "cash is only accepted at staffed ticket offices"? Can't be long, particularly now pre-paid debit cards are available to everyone of whatever age and of whatever credit risk. It would solve a lot of problems.

 

[crehld]

The topic of this thread is about the confusion and potential disputes caused when holding a TransPennine Express only ticket which is used on a TransPennine Express branded train complete with TransPennine Express uniformed staff, TransPennine Express announcements, etc., which is nevertheless running a Northern service. Let's try and stay focused on that, rather than getting sidetracked on the TVM issues, where numerous threads already exist.

 

[37038]

If it's a northern service in the WTT then it's irrelevant that the train was being run all-things-TPE. The board should state it's a NTR service.

Obviously this means that the customer is indeed in the wrong if they had a TPE-only fare but it doesn't mean the situation is passable on Northern's part. The train should be temporarily branded but because of the stock situation, it's impossible to do this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously this means that the customer is indeed in the wrong if they had a TPE-only fare but it doesn't mean the situation is passable on Northern's part. The train should be temporarily branded but because of the stock situation, it's impossible to do this.

It's not impossible. Disposable window stickers (remember those?) would be a very easy way to do it indeed. It'd cost maybe 50p per train, but I'm sure they could cope.

 

[crehld]

It's not impossible. Disposable window stickers (remember those?) would be a very easy way to do it indeed. It'd cost maybe 50p per train, but I'm sure they could cope.

Indeed, when TPE borrowed some of Northern's 156s a couple of years ago this is exactly what they did.

 

[najaB]

It's not impossible. Disposable window stickers (remember those?) would be a very easy way to do it indeed. It'd cost maybe 50p per train, but I'm sure they could cope.

Is it the same set(s) on loan every day?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it the same set(s) on loan every day?

No, but I'm referring to the type of stickers that used to be put in the windows of each train with the calling pattern on, and binned at the end of each run, so that doesn't matter so much.

 

[northwichcat]

Under ATN when they used 158s on TPE routes they put stickers in the window showing the route and the guard (usually) changed them for the return journey.

 

[Greybeard33]

No, but I'm referring to the type of stickers that used to be put in the windows of each train with the calling pattern on, and binned at the end of each run, so that doesn't matter so much.

The 185s have quite short turnrounds at Manchester Airport when they swap between Northern and TPE services, so I expect Northern considers it too much hassle to keep putting stickers on and peeling them off again.

Mon to Fri, only two 185s stay with Northern all day, while five more interwork between Northern and TPE services.

 

[AndrewE]

How on earth do we think the public can ever cope with this sort of aggro (excess fares, penalty charges and other rubbish)? They just wanted to get the train to somewhere!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 185s have quite short turnrounds at Manchester Airport when they swap between Northern and TPE services, so I expect Northern considers it too much hassle to keep putting stickers on and peeling them off again.

Diddums. What about the passenger coming first?

FWIW, window stickers with calling points *and* reservations were all placed on the old North West Express services which were basically the same services. It takes about 10 seconds per sticker, the guard can do them while changing ends, 4 per coach should do it, on the nearest window to the doors or the door window itself.