"via Burnley" fares

[roversfan2001]

Some fares from a few Lancashire stations to stations in the Bradford and Leeds area are routed "via Burnley", at a significant discount to the "Any Permitted" fares. These are presumably designed to be used on the Blackpool North to York service along the Copy Pit line. However, are these valid via Bolton, Manchester Victoria, Todmorden, Burnley Manchester Road, then the normal route to Yorkshire?

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[Romilly]

If you are talking about a ticket from station L to station Y, you find out the permitted routes for that ticket: the shortest route, any route within 3 miles of the shortest route, any route served by a through train (but only if you travel on a through train), and any mapped route.

If any of those routes go via Burnley Manchester Road, they are permitted routes for a "via Burnley" ticket. If none of those routes go via Burnley, you combine a permitted route from station L to Burnley M/Cr Rd with a permitted route from Burnley M/Cr Rd to station Y.

 

[roversfan2001]

Specifically for Leyland to Bradford. Bolton is given as a valid routeing point for Leyland when entered into ATOC's Routeing Point Calculator. The only map given for Bolton to Bradford is MN. Map MN doesn't include Burnley Man Rd, only Todmorden to Hebden Bridge direct. I suspect this means not valid however I'm not sure.

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[Starmill]

If you are saying there are no mapped routes via Burnley (I haven't checked), but the shortest route is valid Burnley (again I haven't checked but I suspect that the shortest route from Leyland to Bradford is via Burnley), then I suspect only the shortest route can be used.

 

[roversfan2001]

After seeing that Manchester to Bradford is routed "via Hebden Bridge" I suspect it's certainly not meant to be permitted, even if it is.

Though Trainsplit v2 has identified splits that are valid that way for not much more than the via Burnley fare in the first place

 

[Romilly]

I am also given Wigan Group, and Preston, as routeing points for a "via Burnley" Leyland-Bradford Interchange journey. But none of the mapped Wigan-Bradford or Preston-Bradford journeys goes via Burnley so far as I can see.

If that means that are no mapped Bolton/Wigan/Preston-Bradford routes that go via Burnley, look separately for routes to Burnley and routes on from Burnley. But there is no routeing point for Burnley for a Leyland-Burnley journey, so you are limited to the shortest regularly used route, which appears to rule out the detour via Manchester and Todmorden.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Preston has a route via Burnley on map NP. This is the only route via Burnley in the Routeing Guide.

 

[yorkie]

There are no permitted routes from Leyland to Bradford which go Leyland - Manchester - Burnley - Manchester.

And using the split routeing check:

There are no permitted routes from Leyland to Burnley which go Leyland - Manchester - Burnley.

 

[kieron]

Specifically for Leyland to Bradford. Bolton is given as a valid routeing point for Leyland when entered into ATOC's Routeing Point Calculator. The only map given for Bolton to Bradford is MN. Map MN doesn't include Burnley Man Rd, only Todmorden to Hebden Bridge direct. I suspect this means not valid however I'm not sure.

Not exactly. There's a rule to say you can't go through a routeing point which isn't shown on the maps you use, but Burnley Manchester Road is not a routeing point. This means that you can use the MN map for the route you described.

Another way to look at it is to say that NRE* thinks it's fine, so it is.

Incidentally, I'm not familiar with the source of the rule Romilly gives.

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[yorkie]

Incidentally, I'm not familiar with the source of the rule Romilly gives.

If you mean the split routeing check, this is part of the electronic routeing guide rules provided to booking engines.

It isn't publicly documented anywhere that I know of (it really should be!)

 

[Paul Kelly]

There are no permitted routes from Leyland to Burnley which go Leyland - Manchester - Burnley.

Unless you're on the twice-daily through train: http://www.brtimes.com/#!board?stn=LEY&filt=BYM

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you mean the split routeing check, this is part of the electronic routeing guide rules provided to booking engines.

It isn't publicly documented anywhere that I know of (it really should be!)

The Routeing Guide states that, where there are no permitted routes via a specified station, routes to and from the specified station should be used (not unlike using map combination "London"). This does not apply here, however, as there is a mapped route via Burnley (using a Routeing Point of Preston and map NP).

 

[yorkie]

The Routeing Guide states that, where there are no permitted routes via a specified station, routes to and from the specified station should be used (not unlike using map combination "London"). This does not apply here, however, as there is a mapped route via Burnley (using a Routeing Point of Preston and map NP).

It does apply but it's not publicly documented. As I said, it should be.

 

[bb21]

It does apply but it's not publicly documented. As I said, it should be.

Does this electronic rule apply to all routed fares regardless?

What about "Not XXX" fares?

 

[yorkie]

Does this electronic rule apply to all routed fares regardless?

The split routeing check can be applied to any routed fare.

What about "Not XXX" fares?

I'm not sure what you had in mind but they are simply not valid via the location* stated.

(* with the caveat that the rules say that where the location is the name of a routeing group, the restriction refers to all locations in that group e.g. Birmingham Group, however some pricing managers price tickets with the apparent belief that the restriction applies to the destination/origin groups e.g. Birmingham Stns)

 

[bb21]

I'm struggling to explain exactly what it is I was trying to get at, so I will discuss this in person when I see you next.

In short, I was trying to figure out whether different sets of permitted routes can be generated for "Not XXX" fares depending on the sequence various steps are carried out, but it is pretty difficult to put it down in writing quickly.

 

[roversfan2001]

So are we saying that Leyland to Bradford isn't valid via Todmorden and Burnley Man. Rd.? Presumably it's valid via Todmorden coming from the Burnley direction, obviously with a significant time penalty.

 

[Paul Kelly]

with the caveat that the rules say that where the location is the name of a routeing group, the restriction refers to all locations in that group e.g. Birmingham Group, however some pricing managers price tickets with the apparent belief that the restriction applies to the destination/origin groups e.g. Birmingham Stns)

Speaking of which, somebody at ATOC may have been reading old threads on the forum as the electronic coding of "NOT VIA BIRMNGHM" was changed in one of the recent routeing guide releases (last couple of weeks) to explicitly exclude only New Street, Snow Hill and Moor Street. It should now allow travel via Aston (but I don't know any examples off hand to try out in a booking engine).

 

[yorkie]

Speaking of which, somebody at ATOC may have been reading old threads on the forum as the electronic coding of "NOT VIA BIRMNGHM" was changed in one of the recent routeing guide releases (last couple of weeks) to explicitly exclude only New Street, Snow Hill and Moor Street. It should now allow travel via Aston (but I don't know any examples off hand to try out in a booking engine).

Walsall to Chester Road, for example.

Yes booking engines are now selling this fare.

Yes this forum seems to be the best place to post suggestions to ATOC; trying to contact train companies via Twitter/phone/email to Customer Relations generally gets you nowhere.

I'm very impressed. Nowadays we get plenty of positive & common sense changes, and often very quickly after the issue has been posted!

I last mentioned it on 2nd May 2017 in this thread: Worcester to Alvechurch, and also what does "Not via Birmingham" mean?

 

[Hadders]

RDG should pay a fee to the forum for the expert advice we give them....

 

[OwlMan]

The split routeing check can be applied to any routed fare.

with the caveat that the rules say that where the location is the name of a routeing group, the restriction refers to all locations in that group e.g. Birmingham Group, however some pricing managers price tickets with the apparent belief that the restriction applies to the destination/origin groups e.g. Birmingham Stns)

Are you sure about that? Where is it documented? AIUI it can be either.

 

[kieron]

The Routeing Guide states that, where there are no permitted routes via a specified station, routes to and from the specified station should be used (not unlike using map combination "London").

Where in the Routeing Guide does it say that? My recollection is that it sounds like something which was an interpretation of a response by ATOC to a specific query.

This does not apply here, however, as there is a mapped route via Burnley (using a Routeing Point of Preston and map NP).

The Conditions of Travel state "The easiest way to check for valid routes is to use the journey planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk." To my knowledge, that journey planner does not draw any distinction like that between different routes. Instead, it shows that (for example) a "via Burnley" ticket is valid on routes via Burnley such as these ones*.

* As always, you may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have for this link to work correctly.

 

[Cantab26]

where in the routeing guide does it say that? My recollection is that it sounds like something which was an interpretation of a response by atoc to a specific query.

nrg-a2:

where the fare specifies a particular route, there will be restrictions in the fare routes data that will affect the routes listed in the guide which pass through the station shown in the route description. The national routeing guide may be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description.

 

[kieron]

nrg-a2:

To me, the most straightforward reading of the first sentence is that (say) a "via Appleby" fare has a restriction on which of the routes via Appleby it may be used on.

The second sentence does suggest using the routeing guide a second time, though, which is a bit closer to what hairyhandedfool said than I expected. Thanks.