Greater Manchester bus franchising

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Some people actually complain when Metrolink services are suspended and they get told to use the 263 bus or similar because sometimes the closest bus stop is around 1/2 mile from the Metrolink stop.

They sound like people who are regular users of the Metrolink system rather than regular bus users who would normally be using intermediate bus stops between Metrolink stops.

 

[northwichcat]

Different liveries are easy identifiers for intending passengers and make for a more colourful addition to town and city areas.

Provided they are consistent. When GHA ran the 27 service the vehicles used included:
- Green and grey Cheshire Connect branded vehicles
- White Vale Travel branded vehicles
- Grey and red GHA branded vehicles
- Yellow buses branded for Reaseheath College
- Beartown branded buses
- Red and Gold GHA Gold vehicles
- Plain vehicles not yet in a livery
- Blue and yellow Vale Travel vehicles
- 'In To The Port' branded buses.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Provided they are consistent. When GHA ran the 27 service the vehicles used included:
- Green and grey Cheshire Connect branded vehicles
- White Vale Travel branded vehicles
- Grey and red GHA branded vehicles
- Yellow buses branded for Reaseheath College
- Beartown branded buses
- Red and Gold GHA Gold vehicles
- Plain vehicles not yet in a livery
- Blue and yellow Vale Travel vehicles
- 'In To The Port' branded buses.

I had in mind the Stagecoach, First and Arriva large fleet operators, not small insignicant companies in comparison with those.

I note you make mention of GHA and we all know what became of them.

 

[northwichcat]

I had in mind the Stagecoach, First and Arriva large fleet operators, not small insignicant companies in comparison with those.

I note you make mention of GHA and we all know what became of them.

Well there's operators both big and small in Greater Manchester.

Do First Group still have vehicles in special heritage liveries? If so they have a wide range of different liveries. Stagecoach have quite a few by the time hybrid buses don't have standard Stagecoach livery and they have buses in blue Magic bus livery, before any route branded vehicles are considered.

 

[radamfi]

You seem to forget that distances between Metrolink stops are far greater than the distances between bus stops along the same route and people do actually live in those intermediate areas.

We have had this discussion a number of times on the SkyScraperCity website and certain examples of those who would be seen to suffer are the elderly and infirm, women with young children, families with no car who carry numerous bags of shopping, etc.

I suspect we are more likely to see a thinning out of parallel bus routes rather than complete withdrawal. There would be no need for most current bus passengers to use the bus for long distances so bus frequencies could be reduced as the bus would cater mostly for people who travel to/from bus stops between tram stops.

 

[carlberry]

I suspect we are more likely to see a thinning out of parallel bus routes rather than complete withdrawal. There would be no need for most current bus passengers to use the bus for long distances so bus frequencies could be reduced as the bus would cater mostly for people who travel to/from bus stops between tram stops.

But what if bus passengers actually want to use the bus? This is the problem with any authority that has an expensive toy to justify. The same old excuses get trotted out but the end result is poorer bus services and less choice.

 

[radamfi]

But what if bus passengers actually want to use the bus? This is the problem with any authority that has an expensive toy to justify. The same old excuses get trotted out but the end result is poorer bus services and less choice.

Why would you want to use the bus if it is slower, less comfortable and costs the same as the tram? In Zurich, Rotterdam and many other places, out of town buses terminate at the edge of town so that people continue their journey by tram/metro. Does that mean Zurich and Rotterdam have got it wrong?

 

[northwichcat]

Why would you want to use the bus if it is slower, less comfortable and costs the same as the tram? In Zurich, Rotterdam and many other places, out of town buses terminate at the edge of town so that people continue their journey by tram/metro. Does that mean Zurich and Rotterdam have got it wrong?

That won't work with Metrolink given they like terminating services short to recover late running. They need to change their approach to skipping out less used intermediate stations to recover late running for that idea to work in Manchester.

 

[carlberry]

Why would you want to use the bus if it is slower, less comfortable and costs the same as the tram? In Zurich, Rotterdam and many other places, out of town buses terminate at the edge of town so that people continue their journey by tram/metro. Does that mean Zurich and Rotterdam have got it wrong?

So if people actually want to use the bus, the answer is you cant in Zurich so you cant here!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why would you want to use the bus if it is slower, less comfortable and costs the same as the tram? In Zurich, Rotterdam and many other places, out of town buses terminate at the edge of town so that people continue their journey by tram/metro. Does that mean Zurich and Rotterdam have got it wrong?

At least buses in Britain have plenty of seat provision, which is not what I have experienced when in Greater Manchester when using the Metrolink system. Perhaps can someone say whether the original T68 trams there had more seating capacity than the M5000 ones currently running there.

In Zurich and Rotterdam, do the trams have stops much closer together than the Metrolink system, where the need for accessing areas in-between stops would be less of a burden to those categories that I mentioned in an earlier posting?

 

[radamfi]

So if people actually want to use the bus, the answer is you cant in Zurich so you cant here!

They've got loads of money in Zurich so they could easily afford to run buses into the city centre if they wanted but they don't. Whereas in Britain where money is more tight we choose to duplicate.

 

[radamfi]

In Zurich and Rotterdam, do the trams have stops much closer together than the Metrolink system, where the need for accessing areas in-between stops would be less of a burden to those categories that I mentioned in an earlier posting?

Generally bus and tram stops are similarly spaced in mainland Europe. The gaps between bus/tram stops in mainland Europe are bigger than between bus stops in Britain, but tram stops are further apart in Britain than in mainland Europe.

 

[ivanhoe]

Different liveries are easy identifiers for intending passengers and make for a more colourful addition to town and city areas.

There's about 6 different liveries (operators)in a small town like Loughborough. Unless you have an ENCTS pass, there is no inter operator through ticketing, whether journey specific or more importantly day tickets. All is fine and dandy in City Regions but step outside them, and it's a different world. Give me one or two operators any day. I accept that City Regions are totally different to say the likes of Leicestershire, but competition on routes is minimal. They have stitched off the routes between them. This is an abject failure of deregulation. A system that not even the daftest Yanks would impose on their citizens, yet we persist in England and Wales.

 

[radamfi]

A system that not even the daftest Yanks would impose on their citizens, yet we persist in England and Wales.

And indeed Scotland, even though Scotland has been through both Labour and SNP devolved administrations that have failed to address the issue. Greater Manchester has had far more limited devolution for a matter of days and are already on the case.

It does seem strange that the most well known exponent of free market capitalism has not gone in for bus deregulation, but I suspect that the captive bus market is too small for money to be made, especially given that they have the universal free school bus system. Hardly any commercial bus services would be registered in the USA.

 

[nerd]

At least buses in Britain have plenty of seat provision, which is not what I have experienced when in Greater Manchester when using the Metrolink system. Perhaps can someone say whether the original T68 trams there had more seating capacity than the M5000 ones currently running there.

The T68s had 82 seats + 4 fold-down seats in the wheelchair bays. The M5000s (from 3075 upwards) have 60 seats plus 6 'perch seats". Both tram units have a nominal total capacity of just over 200 at 4 standing per sq m; but the M5000s (from personal experience) are a lot more comfortable to stand in, and at a push can run much fuller at 'crush' densities.

Standing in buses is very different from standing on trams; so long as passengers have plentiful handholds provided (the latest M5000s are a forest of grab poles) many passengers actively prefer to stand in crowded trams at speeds of up to 80 kmh. If a bus (like a tram)is to carry most of its passengers standing at peak periods, then it cannot realistically travel faster than 45 kmh.

But that is not a serious restriction for a future metropolitan bus network; as most inner city roads are likely to have 20 mph speed limits anyway. So long as those 20 mph limits do not involve intrusive speed bumps. But for longer BRT-style trips, passengers will have to be seated. However, for shorter distance travel, the trams demonstrate that most passengers will happily pay full fare to travel standing up.

But you have raised a good point; overall bus networks in Greater Manchester - even at peak - run seriously under-capacity. Standard double deckers have a capacity of around 90 (typically 78 seating, 15 standing); yet average peak occupancy on most routes is between 25 and 30. The exception, of course, being the busway; whose buses have 63 seats and 28 standing places; and for which all seating is full on peak serivices.

Which , in my view, shows the way forward. In the deregulated market, buses have too many seats, rammed too close together, which are very rarely fully occupied. They have insufficient space for standing, buggies, and wheelchairs. I would expect GM to shift to using two different models for stopping bus services; on the very high volume routes (42 and 192) I would expect vehicles with many fewer seats and a lot more standing - maybe single-deck and articulated - with multiple doors. On longer distance lower volume routes, I would expect something more like the current busway units to predominate. But both models would be low (or zero) emissions.

 

[northwichcat]

There's about 6 different liveries (operators)in a small town like Loughborough. Unless you have an ENCTS pass, there is no inter operator through ticketing, whether journey specific or more importantly day tickets. All is fine and dandy in City Regions but step outside them, and it's a different world. Give me one or two operators any day.

There used to be a Cheshire East council 'Cheshire Connect' livery which at one point was used by 4 different operators - High Peak, Vale Travel, Bakerbus and D&G Bus. When High Peak returned their 4 Cheshire Connect liveried vehicles and started using buses in their own livery on the same routes, a lot of people thought the operator had changed.

 

[geoffk]

I attended a buses seminar earlier this week in Manchester, hosted by Centre for Cities, an urban policy research group. Speakers included Abellio, who are receptive to franchising as they have bus operations in London as well as rail franchises. The "big three" bus operators are hostile, others are undecided or agnostic. TfGM is now doing a public consultation on a franchising scheme which would be introduced area by area (three in all). Franchising is an established model for providing bus services in Europe and elsewhere.
An assessment by TfGM has compared its proposed franchising scheme with other options – including partnership working with the bus companies or leaving bus services run as they are now. It found that the proposed franchising scheme would be the best way to meet Greater Manchester’s objectives for buses, which includes a joined-up integrated public transport network, simpler fares and ticketing, an improved customer experience, and better value for money.

 

[py_megapixel]

One thing I really hate about discussion of these major changes which are intended to improve transport connections is people whinging about moquettes and livery. Yes, maybe you particularly like one operator's livery, or don't want buses to look more generic, but in reality, the average passenger cares about it being simple and cheap for them to get on the bus.

I'd wager the majority of passengers couldn't care less whether their bus is blue, or pink, or red, or whatever colour TfGM might choose for new branding - they just care that it's comfortable and on-time, and they're not rammed together because the bus is too full.

 

[geoffk]

I think any decision on livery etc. is some way down the line. TfGM is looking to have a single livery (I guess not orange and off-white), as in London, where passengers see a London bus and don't need to know if the operator is Abellio, Arriva, Tower Transit etc. Exceptions would be operators from the surrounding counties running services across the boundary. These services would have to be operated under a different regulatory regime and this is discussed in the 140-page document.

 

[py_megapixel]

I think any decision on livery etc. is some way down the line. TfGM is looking to have a single livery (I guess not orange and off-white), as in London, where passengers see a London bus and don't need to know if the operator is Abellio, Arriva, Tower Transit etc. Exceptions would be operators from the surrounding counties running services across the boundary. These services would have to be operated under a different regulatory regime and this is discussed in the 140-page document.

I know (I did have a brief look through the document).
The point I'm trying to make is that the livery is completely beside the point, and therefore shouldn't be the topic of discussion.

 

[geoffk]

I know (I did have a brief look through the document).
The point I'm trying to make is that the livery is completely beside the point, and therefore shouldn't be the topic of discussion.

Agreed.

 

[Mikey C]

For many years after tendering came in, London buses didn't have to be all red, so it's not as if from day 1 Manchester buses all need to be painted in one livery. Indeed Grey Green winning the 24 was a major landmark, the first central London route not in red for a long time!

After that the buses had to be 80%(?) red, so that operators could still have different colour swirls and skirts, before TfL went for the slightly dull all red livery!

Londoners expect their buses to be red, I assume orange is Manchester's colour? At least it's neutral between United and City

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

For many years after tendering came in, London buses didn't have to be all red, so it's not as if from day 1 Manchester buses all need to be painted in one livery. Indeed Grey Green winning the 24 was a major landmark, the first central London route not in red for a long time!

After that the buses had to be 80%(?) red, so that operators could still have different colour swirls and skirts, before TfL went for the slightly dull all red livery!

Londoners expect their buses to be red, I assume orange is Manchester's colour? At least it's neutral between United and City

Orange is likely to be remembered as the colour used by both GMBuses North and South which were hardly the best operators pre- and post-privatisation. I suspect Metrolink yellow is more likely to be adopted as a standard colour if such a thing is deemed necessary. It also has the advantage of not being readily associated with any other specific operator.

 

[Alexbus12]

Orange is likely to be remembered as the colour used by both GMBuses North and South which were hardly the best operators pre- and post-privatisation. I suspect Metrolink yellow is more likely to be adopted as a standard colour if such a thing is deemed necessary. It also has the advantage of not being readily associated with any other specific operator.

Rossos new livery is banana yellow...

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Rossos new livery is banana yellow...

And is a much richer colour than Metrolink's. It's also combined with other colours according to the route branding. I would anticipate any notional TfGM yellow being applied in an overall style.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

For many years after tendering came in, London buses didn't have to be all red, so it's not as if from day 1 Manchester buses all need to be painted in one livery. Indeed Grey Green winning the 24 was a major landmark, the first central London route not in red for a long time!

After that the buses had to be 80%(?) red, so that operators could still have different colour swirls and skirts, before TfL went for the slightly dull all red livery!

Londoners expect their buses to be red, I assume orange is Manchester's colour? At least it's neutral between United and City

Correct - LRT were approached by the tourist authorities as the classic London bus was under threat!

Orange is likely to be remembered as the colour used by both GMBuses North and South which were hardly the best operators pre- and post-privatisation. I suspect Metrolink yellow is more likely to be adopted as a standard colour if such a thing is deemed necessary. It also has the advantage of not being readily associated with any other specific operator.

I don't know if that many people really do remember that. Anyone under 35 probably won't do so and many of those older will have a pass and won't really care.

 

[py_megapixel]

And is a much richer colour than Metrolink's. It's also combined with other colours according to the route branding. I would anticipate any notional TfGM yellow being applied in an overall style.

Not sure I'd like buses yellow all over. But I am partial to the silver with yellow outlines that the trams have.

But what really matters, as I said before, is the service quality. I would happily get on a bus which was brown with pink stripes if it got me to my destination cheaply, safely and comfortably

 

[Robertj21a]

Not sure I'd like buses yellow all over. But I am partial to the silver with yellow outlines that the trams have.

But what really matters, as I said before, is the service quality. I would happily get on a bus which was brown with pink stripes if it got me to my destination cheaply, safely and comfortably

Bournemouth had a largely yellow livery that looked smart. Mind you, their weather is often a bit better than Manchester......

 

[radamfi]

Bournemouth had a largely yellow livery that looked smart. Mind you, their weather is often a bit better than Manchester......

Wikipedia says Bournemouth has an average of 835.2 mm of rain per year compared to 828.8 mm in Manchester, although Bournemouth has about 20% more sunshine hours.

 

[Stan Drews]

Wikipedia says Bournemouth has an average of 835.2 mm of rain per year compared to 828.8 mm in Manchester, although Bournemouth has about 20% more sunshine hours.

Ah, the joys of Wiki. Climate-data.org suggests rather different figures of 800 and 929mm respectively, which would seem to be closer to the facts.