Dispute with revenue protection

[ian13]

If you, say board a train as the ticket machine isn't functional in some way, but the guard refuses to sell a discounted ticket, or you boarded a service which the guard refused to believe your ticket was valid on, what rights do you have?

Are you able to refuse to pay, and provide your name and address, or must you pay what they demand and then complain later? I just wonder what powers they have.

 

[First class]

Ask for an unpaid fares notice, give him your details and dispute the fact with Customer Services. Alternatively, pay the fare, take his ID number or name, train time, and write a letter.

If you receive a penalty fare take it up with the appeals body.

Any railway official has the right to ask you for your name and address, and you must provide it, if you are suspected of breaching, (or attempting to breach), one or more byelaws. Giving false details will lead to fraud charges. They are usually verified over the phone anyway.

You can actually be detained by Revenue Protection Officers who are PACE trained.

 

[glynn80]

You can actually be detained by Revenue Protection Officers who are PACE trained.

Although they hardly ever enact this power as it is a "legal minefield" if excessive force is used etc, and as such are instructed not to detain passengers.

 

[Tom C]

Ask for an unpaid fares notice, give him your details and dispute the fact with Customer Services. Alternatively, pay the fare, take his ID number or name, train time, and write a letter.

Many operators no longer use UFN's. On PF Trains the basic options are Penalty Fare be it in full or part or an MG11. Tickets SHOULD only be sold if you have not had the ability to purchase a ticket before you travel and the inspector actually been told about it. Bear in mind that if a station is unmanned it may be very difficult for an inspector to establish whether the machines are working or not.

If you are in this situation then my advise would be to pay the penalty fare in PART (which requires the SDS for the journey you are making) then make an appeal. Bear in mind that a name and address is required which will be verified.

If you are on a train with a guard then a letter to the relevant customer relations department should resolve any issue with faulty equipment.

 

[Phoenix]

I know this may or may not have anything to do with this but if you have a student Rail card and you find yourself getting on at a station which has no staff or ticket machines (or even a permit to travel machine) then the guard on board the train is required to give you the discount but apparently in the Midlands Water Orton is the only station where this is possible.

 

[Tom C]

I know this may or may not have anything to do with this but if you have a student Rail card and you find yourself getting on at a station which has no staff or ticket machines (or even a permit to travel machine) then the guard on board the train is required to give you the discount but apparently in the Midlands Water Orton is the only station where this is possible.

If there are no facilities to purchase a ticket at the station where you board then you should be offered a full range of tickets which would obviously include any railcard discounts.

Who said that Water Orton is the only station? Is that the only station with nothing whatsoever?

 

[Phoenix]

If there are no facilities to purchase a ticket at the station where you board then you should be offered a full range of tickets which would obviously include any railcard discounts.

Who said that Water Orton is the only station? Is that the only station with nothing whatsoever?

In the Midlands apparently although that was mentioned to me by a XC guard the other day.
I would be hard pressed to think of another that didn't even have a permit to travel machine.

 

[moonrakerz]

Bear in mind that if a station is unmanned it may be very difficult for an inspector to establish whether the machines are working or not.

In Law, that is HIS problem not yours - he has to prove that it was working and you were "trying it on" - you don't have to prove yourself innocent.
Whether you "agree" to the rail operator's Ts & Cs, by boarding the train, is probably another point that has never been properly argued in Court - just like excessive Bank charges.

Regrettably, in this country, there seem to be more and more things where they seem to think that you have to prove yourself innocent, not for them to prove you guilty !

 

[OwlMan]

In the Midlands apparently although that was mentioned to me by a XC guard the other day.
I would be hard pressed to think of another that didn't even have a permit to travel machine.

Bedworth has no machines or permit to travel machines. You have to buy from the guard. also last time I used South Wigston that had no machines or permit to travel machines

Peter

 

[route:oxford]

Any railway official has the right to ask you for your name and address, and you must provide it, if you are suspected of breaching, (or attempting to breach), one or more by-laws. Giving false details will lead to fraud charges. They are usually verified over the phone anyway.

I'd always be very careful about giving out personal information in a public place.

Ask the railway official for his company ID. Explain to him that you are going to telephone the railway company to confirm that he is genuine. Don't use any numbers he gives you. National Rail Enquiries 08457 48 49 50 will be able to give you a contact number of the rail operator if you don't happen to have it on a timetable etc about your person.

Whilst you are in the call queue, you may wish to ask the railway official for a copy of the formal Data Protection Policy of the company. Most commercial firms call it "How we use your Data" or something similar.

Only when you are completely satisfied that the Railway Official is genuine should you to disclose your personal information. Obviously you should go to an area of the train where you cannot be overheard by fellow passengers. If this is unrealistic, then better to wait until you have reached your destination and provide the information in a more suitable location.

The important thing is to be communicative and explain fully what you are doing. Should it end up in the local magistrates court, a copy of the government guidance on your personal data will be evidence in your favour, as will a copy of your mobile bill evidencing calls to National Rail Enquiries and the Rail Operator.

 

[Broken Viking]

I would be hard pressed to think of another that didn't even have a permit to travel machine.

Bedworth has no machines or permit to travel machines. You have to buy from the guard. also last time I used South Wigston that had no machines or permit to travel machines.

Annoyingly enough, South West Trains have also removed all of the Permit to Travel (PTT) machines from the stations that I've used over the past few years. :roll:

Although I'm fully aware that QuickFare machines accept cards and can give change, there are still times when use of one is not convenient or possible. Sometimes - Even though I give myself ample time to get there - I run into unavoidable delays en-route to the station, arriving there at the same time as my train.
Likewise, there have been occasions when I've arrived at a station 5-10 minutes before departure, but the queue for the ticket machine has been horrendous and - Even though I've queued - I've still had to break rank and request permission to buy from the Guard insted. :?

Although QuickFare machines are handy when they're available and ye have a good 3-5 minutes available to process thy purchase, the operating system used upon them (Windows XP Embedded, I believe) is far too slow and cumbersome for purchasing tickets at the last minute. Furthermore, the touch-screens on those machines aren't the best in the World, and - Even though I'm skilled in using touch-screen terminals - I still find that I get a fair amount of incorrect input on SWTs machines due to inprecise adjustment.

If we still had PTT machines at SWT stations, it'd simply be a case of slipping a £1.00 coin into my pocket before setting off for the station, stuffing it into the PTT machine upon arrival, and hitting [Print]...A process that takes no more than five seconds, and is a much better option when time is limited!

 

[Tom B]

I ran into problems recently at Doncaster where the queue for the ticket window was out the ticket office door, and moving very slowly. My train was in 10 minutes, fortunately I had a debit card so could pay by that method at the machine - but otherwise I would have either had to miss my train (next one in 3 hours...) or hope the guard was feeling nice... of course it's the passenger's fault that the machines only take cards and that the queue is so long, not the companies!

I've seen some ticket machines in London which won't issue child tickets and you need to go to a window... what if the window is closed?

 

[mumrar]

In the Midlands apparently although that was mentioned to me by a XC guard the other day.
I would be hard pressed to think of another that didn't even have a permit to travel machine.

Alvechurch, most stations south of Shirley and the stations between Walsall and Rugeley are all unmanned without machines (I haven't worked the latter two routes for some time so may be corrected here)