Are remaining 9 car Pendolinos likely to be lengthened

[Hellfire]

I was on the 0657 Preston to Euston on Tuesday. This is normally an 11 coach train but, in the event a 9 coach turned up. This train is usually very busy and, in this case, Standard was jammed and First almost full. I understand a platform announcement was made at Warrington BQ advising passengers to wait for the 0717 from Preston and change at Crewe onto a service from Manchester to Euston because there were no seats left

All this begs the question, Are the remaining 9 car sets likely to be lengthened to 11 or has that process finished? .

 

[randyrippley]

I was on the 0657 Preston to Euston on Tuesday. This is normally an 11 coach train but, in the event a 9 coach turned up. This train is usually very busy and, in this case, Standard was jammed and First almost full. I understand a platform announcement was made at Warrington BQ advising passengers to wait for the 0717 from Preston and change at Crewe onto a service from Manchester to Euston because there were no seats left

All this begs the question, Are the remaining 9 car sets likely to be lengthened to 11 or has that process finished? .

Is there a coach builder willing to take on the construction of a limited number of coaches of a superceded design with end-of-life availability parts?

 

[D365]

Nope. Finished.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Why doesn't it beg the question why can't Virgin and Alstom provide an 11-car unit for a service that needs, and usually gets, an 11-car unit?

 

[adrock1976]

Sadly it would not be economical now to do that.

Back in the the late Noughties/early Tweenies when the proposal first came up for an additional fleet of (I think) 4 x 11 coach Class 390s (390154 to 157 with one of those replacing 390033 "City of Glasgow" - withdrawn after the 2007 Grayrigg derailment), there was a plan to extend 32 out of 53 of the original sets from 9 to 11 coaches.

A couple of years ago, the 21 9 coach sets had First Class Coach G converted to Standard Class Coach F to provide extra Standard Class seated capacity. In my view, had things been done properly first time round when the original sets were extended to 11 coaches, it would have worked out cheaper to build an extra 42 coaches as there was already a production line, resulting in economies of scale. This would also have saved the hassle of converting a First Class coach to Standard Class as well.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

All this begs the question, Are the remaining 9 car sets likely to be lengthened to 11 or has that process finished? .

As well as being an out-of-date product (it's been superceeded at least once), iirc some places can't handle more than a 9 car Pendolino, I think it was due to a longer one than a 9 car fouling a junction/pointwork

 

[roversfan2001]

Why doesn't it beg the question why can't Virgin and Alstom provide an 11-car unit for a service that needs, and usually gets, an 11-car unit?

Why is Virgin's diagramming anything to do with Alstom?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Because Alstom do the maintenance on and operate all the depots that maintain Pendolinos. A 06:57 departure from Preston will obviously have been the set's first service of the day.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As well as being an out-of-date product (it's been superceeded at least once), iirc some places can't handle more than a 9 car Pendolino, I think it was due to a longer one than a 9 car fouling a junction/pointwork

11-car 390s call at everywhere a 9-car does, I believe.
They need some work doing at Poulton-le-Fylde for the Blackpool extension next year.
The DfT had its chance (more than once) to extend the remaining sets during the last round of production, but declined to do so, and it's now too late.
You can blame the fallout from the 2012 franchise fiasco really.

 

[dk1]

Not a hope in hell I'd say.

 

[thenorthern]

The technology for the Class 390 dates from 2000 so they are considered old technology now, I think its more likely that there will be a new generation of tilting trains when they need more trains although HS2 will probably reduce the need for that.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Because Alstom do the maintenance on and operate all the depots that maintain Pendolinos. A 06:57 departure from Preston will obviously have been the set's first service of the day.

This is the 0428 from Glasgow so clearly an 11-car Pendolino wasn't available at Polmadie.

However there is a service only twenty minutes later at Preston that only originates at Lancaster (albeit via the Midlands), if the former was that full.

 

[The Ham]

As well as being an out-of-date product (it's been superceeded at least once), iirc some places can't handle more than a 9 car Pendolino, I think it was due to a longer one than a 9 car fouling a junction/pointwork

It is 12 coaches that are the problem, it is why (at least in part) the argument against HS2 by using longer 390's doesn't hold water.

Should all of the trains been lengthened when they were done, I think so. Is it viable to do so now, not unless a new batch (of a new version) is ordered by someone else.

As then you could build some more 11 coach of the new type to replace enough of the existing 9 coach versions to reform all the 9 coaches to 11.

Is that likely, I would guess not, given that in about 6 years time HS2 will start to remove the need for 11 coach trains on the classic network.

It could be possible that the new Classic Compatible such for HS2 could be tilting, but that is unlikely given that it would spend most of its time not using it. However if it were to happen it could be ordered so that the first units started to enter passenger service before HS2 opened if passenger demand required it.

If however it was possible to build a HS (tilting) train to UK guage, then it could possibly that a train builder could be interested in building 6 coach versions to replace the Voyagers. They then, whilst they wait for HS2 to open, get on with building the rest of the fleet. That could also allow some 11 coach versions to come into service. However that is quite a long shot.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The technology for the Class 390 dates from 2000 so they are considered old technology now, I think its more likely that there will be a new generation of tilting trains when they need more trains although HS2 will probably reduce the need for that.

Do we really need tilting trains? iirc the difference in journey time between tilt and non tilt trains through the section where the tilt is used wasn't that much. If tilt was abandoned then any new trains (when built) on the WCML could be full profile and not have to have slanted sides

 

[Bald Rick]

Do we really need tilting trains? iirc the difference in journey time between tilt and non tilt trains through the section where the tilt is used wasn't that much. If tilt was abandoned then any new trains (when built) on the WCML could be full profile and not have to have slanted sides

Yes it does make a difference.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Do we really need tilting trains? iirc the difference in journey time between tilt and non tilt trains through the section where the tilt is used wasn't that much. If tilt was abandoned then any new trains (when built) on the WCML could be full profile and not have to have slanted sides

Tilt gains you something like 15 minutes north of Crewe at present.
The HS2 (non-tilt) proposal is that for £50 billion you can cut the time from London to Crewe by 30 minutes, but then lose 15 minutes of that onwards to Glasgow on the 110mph non-tilt WCML.
Things improve a bit when trains run to Golborne on HS2b.

It is possible that some of the northern WCML will be improved so that 125mph is available to non-tilt trains (by realignment or new sections), but that is not funded/planned and will be very costly.

The other HS2 argument is that tilt-capable trains would be limited to 250km/h (155mph) on HS2, but Alstom disagrees.
Also remember London-Edinburgh services are also planned to use this route from HS2b opening.

 

[43096]

Tilt gains you something like 15 minutes north of Crewe at present.
The HS2 (non-tilt) proposal is that for £50 billion you can cut the time from London to Crewe by 30 minutes, but then lose 15 minutes of that onwards to Glasgow on the 110mph non-tilt WCML.
Things improve a bit when trains run to Golborne on HS2b.

It is possible that some of the northern WCML will be improved so that 125mph is available to non-tilt trains (by realignment or new sections), but that is not funded/planned and will be very costly.

The other HS2 argument is that tilt-capable trains would be limited to 250km/h (155mph) on HS2, but Alstom disagrees.
Also remember London-Edinburgh services are also planned to use this route from HS2b opening.

The reliability targets set for HS2 stock are eye-wateringly high. That likely precludes tilt - there is nothing as reliable as a system you don't fit.

 

[najaB]

The reliability targets set for HS2 stock are eye-wateringly high. That likely precludes tilt - there is nothing as reliable as a system you don't fit.

That's true, but how often do tilt failures occur as compared to other failures?

 

[thenorthern]

When there is a need for capacity I would think that there will just be a new generation of tilting trains.

The Pendolinos themselves are 16 years old which if they were cars would have Y or 51 plates.

 

[3141]

Why doesn't it beg the question why can't Virgin and Alstom provide an 11-car unit for a service that needs, and usually gets, an 11-car unit?

There's another question, about what decision a TOC should take when the usual stock for a diagram isn't available: do they provide a shorter train, or do they cancel it? Most people would prefer the former answer.

 

[Chester1]

Alliance is now applying to use Mark IV rakes cascaded from ECML for is open access Blackpool-London service starting next year. They want to remove stops to make up the 15 minutes lost through using non tilting stock.

There are currently 23 Super Voyagers in CrossCountry's fleet that have had their tilting mechanism removed. If necessary the next franchise spec could force these to be replaced (e.g. with new bi modes and or cascaded loco hauled sets) but there doesn't seem to be a need to cascade them.

The most obvious route to phase out tilting stock would have been Birmingham to Scotland because the new electric Class 397s will have much faster acceleration than diesel 221s and there is no tilting north of Preston (or Lancaster maybe?). However the London-Birmingham-Scotland service is popular and non tilting stock on the whole route would slow things down too much. Splitting it and ordering long Class 397s would free up 10-12 Voyagers to be used to componsate for reconfiguring the Pendalinos into 11 and (doubled up) 5 car units, if this is possible. Alternatively the London-Chester/Holyhead service could be completely altered to allow all services to be doubled up. This would require nearly all the Voyagers currently used for London-Birmingham-Scotland services but would add significant capacity between London and Crewe.

 

[takno]

there is no tilting north of Preston (or Lancaster maybe?).

There's tilting all the way to Glasgow

 

[najaB]

...and there is no tilting north of Preston (or Lancaster maybe?)...

I take it from that statement that you've never travelled the route onboard a Pendolino or Voyager.

 

[najaB]

There's tilting all the way to Glasgow

To just south of Carstairs, if memory serves correct.

Something didn't sound right as I posted that, so went and checked the SA. There is a short section of EPS speeds between Shieldmuir and Motherwell and the line is TASS fitted throughout.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

To just south of Carstairs, if memory serves correct.
Something didn't sound right as I posted that, so went and checked the SA. There is a short section of EPS speeds between Shieldmuir and Motherwell and the line is TASS fitted throughout.

Essentially there's no tilt north of Carstairs (the EPS section at Shieldmuir is too short to make any difference), and none towards Edinburgh.
Nor, for that matter, between Acton Grange and north of Wigan.
Low speed limits through Preston and Carlisle areas also mean EPS is not used there either.

There's going to be a clash of cultures between HS2 (who will buy the new trains) and LNW Route (who will operate them off HS2).
Somehow, the WCP TOC has to square the circle.
But it's all going to be "world class".

 

[Bertie the bus]

There's another question, about what decision a TOC should take when the usual stock for a diagram isn't available: do they provide a shorter train, or do they cancel it? Most people would prefer the former answer.

Of course they would and I didn't suggest otherwise. The point I was trying to make was, why does a short formed service beg the question why doesn't the government spend a couple of hundred million pounds buying some new carriages and not why didn't the rail companies involved ensure a suitable set worked the service?

 

[philthetube]

I think the only hope for lengthening would be if someone was scrapping similar

 

[route:oxford]

Are the remaining 9 car sets likely to be lengthened to 11 or has that process finished? .

What's more likely to happen is that, once HS2 opens, a formal review is undertaken of first class provision on the heritage stock along with a major refresh.

At that point, you may find that first class provision is reduced to one coach (or maybe just half a coach) and the fleet reorganised into 42 10-car sets and 14 11-car sets.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

At that point, you may find that first class provision is reduced to one coach (or maybe just half a coach) and the fleet reorganised into 42 10-car sets and 14 11-car sets.

I think you'll find 10-car Pendolinos are a non-viable combination for technical reasons (electrical load I think).
That's why they went for 11, and why one of the extra cars is a pantograph car.
It may even be why there wasn't enough money to extend the whole fleet at the same time.

 

[cj_1985]

ISTR that Virgin had offered to foot the bill to lengthen the full fleet, provided that the DfT gave them an extension to their franchise. Obviously, the DfT never agreed to the offer