Arriva Rail North DOO

[LowLevel]

In a nutshell it means work to the terms of your contract which most of us bend frequently to help out, despite the bad press we seem to get.

So the TCS might ring me up at 1000 when I'm booked on at 1530 and say can you get here at 1115, I've had someone go sick, can you come in early. Generally I'd say yes, work to rule, no. Or 'can you come in on your rest day'- work to rule, no. Or I know you're finishing your booked 6 hour day in a balanced roster but there's delays, can you take an extra train out. Usually I'll do my best to help, work to rule, no. Can you shorten your break by 5 mins or take it somewhere else - nope.

It hurts a lot more than strike action because you can't prepare for matters arising on the day. It also shows up just how much many of us do the keep the trains moving.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. It has no relation with any railway "rule book" which must be adhered to at all times.

Correct, but with the rider that that isn't always clear. If a specific amount of time is allocated for preparing a train, if there is work to rule that amount of time (or longer, if actually required) is taken. If there isn't work to rule, the train will be ready to enter service once the required preparations are complete, even if that is sooner.

This kind of thing tends to get in the way when there are delays - when there aren't it is of basically no consequence.

 

[IanXC]

I did mean to ask, perhaps not very clearly being an "old codger", what the exact meaning of "rule" implies in the phase "work to rule". Can someone clarify that exact meaning.

Some good examples have been posted already in a specifically railway context. In a more general sense someone who is 'working to rule' may:

• decline to attend a morning team huddle which starts maybe 5 minutes before their scheduled start time
• take exactly their lunch break even if that results in them being late for a meeting
• decline to do work which is strictly speaking outside their job description
• strictly follow every single step in a procedure, even when they know that steps are not, in the real work, required in certain circumstances
• undertake tasks especially slowly and methodically, ensuring they are done absolutely correctly, rather than taking a pragmatic view

The most extreme example I am aware of is a particular dispute where staff put the phone down on customers when their hours were up (the company would not pay overtime in this circumstance until 30 minutes had been worked, which was never the case, so the employees, 'working to rule' declined to work any overtime whatsoever).

 

[northwichcat]

Strike timetables now online: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/industrial-action Very limited Saturday service on some routes.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Staff brief issued today by the company, containing an interesting sentence.....

...After some lengthy discussion, this proposal was not acceptable to RMT because Northern is not able to guarantee a second person on every single train in future....

.... I thought that was one of their guarantees!

There's also a bit of blame game....

.... It is this condition from the RMT that is getting in the way of us being able to hold talks....

And some hollow promises....

....for existing conductors we are prepared to guarantee a role, protect pay, and offer future, annual pay reviews, if we can agree a deal with RMT....

And coming from a company that kept saying they had no plans yet and nothing to discuss....

....We explained to RMT representatives that by us agreeing the importance of visibility, retailing support and customer service, it was our duty to discuss how, across our diverse network, these important elements can best be delivered with our staff. We had hoped the offer to talk, shape and secure the future, was more attractive than a continuation to strike....

....Suddenly they want to talk about their plans. Anyone would think there was a three day strike coming up.....

Oh, and advance warning....

... there will be changes to frontline roles to support customers on trains and at stations....

.... There may be (more) trouble ahead!

 

[northwichcat]

Staff brief issued today by the company, containing an interesting sentence.....

.... I thought that was one of their guarantees!

I thought Arriva said they will plan to have 2 members of staff on all services but the RMT responded by asking them to put in writing a guarantee that all services will have a 'safety critical guard' on board and when they said no, the RMT said they were backtracking.

I didn't think Arriva ever promised a service would be cancelled if the planned second member of staff was unavailable and a replacement can't be found.

And some hollow promises....

A guarantee of work until 2025 without being moved to a lower pay grade with annual pay reviews. In any other industry the union would bite the employer's hand off for a guarantee like that!

 

[TUC]

Given the number of times Northern guards remain invisible in the rear cab and too often don't even make station announcements, I think some members of the public, faced with DOO, would say 'so what's the difference?'

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Given the number of times Northern guards remain invisible in the rear cab and too often don't even make station announcements, I think some members of the public, faced with DOO, would say 'so what's the difference?'

Conductors are routinely checked by management and mystery shoppers also the Star Mobile system makes it a lot easier for Conductor Team Managers to do an hour by hour comparison compared to Avantix. Of course there is the odd Conductor who does hide in their cab but their are also a lot of double units without gangways so the guard is not seen in the front portion. As a guard we will fight and we will keep fighting regardless of a minorities opinion. This all boils down to the Tory government and the DfT and we will not surrender are beliefs.

 

[northwichcat]

Of course Labour controlled Merseytravel have also chosen to axe guards and Rail North (mainly consisting of Labour councils) signed off the Northern spec.

I wonder how many times guards can claim they couldn't get through to do revenue due to overcrowding without it causing suspicion. A few standing at both the front and rear seems to put off a lot. The guard who had the 22:17 Piccadilly to Chester last night hid in the cab despite only having a lightly loaded train. The only passenger facing work he did was prior to dispatching the train at Piccadilly when a passenger wanting to travel on an ATW service asked him a query - presumably in the absence of any other visible staff at the station.

 

[northernchris]

Of course Labour controlled Merseytravel have also chosen to axe guards and Rail North (mainly consisting of Labour councils) signed off the Northern spec.

I wonder how many times guards can claim they couldn't get through to do revenue due to overcrowding without it causing suspicion. A few standing at both the front and rear seems to put off a lot. The guard who had the 22:17 Piccadilly to Chester last night hid in the cab despite only having a lightly loaded train. The only passenger facing work he did was prior to dispatching the train at Piccadilly when a passenger wanting to travel on an ATW service asked him a query - presumably in the absence of any other visible staff at the station.

I was on a train last week where on arrival the conductor announced he was unable to sell tickets due to no machines being available at Victoria. So sometimes even if a conductor wants to issue tickets they might not be able to

 

[Kite159]

I was on a train last week where on arrival the conductor announced he was unable to sell tickets due to no machines being available at Victoria. So sometimes even if a conductor wants to issue tickets they might not be able to

At least they announced they were unable to sell tickets, rather than hiding in the back-cab.

 

[ainsworth74]

Given the number of times Northern guards remain invisible in the rear cab and too often don't even make station announcements, I think some members of the public, faced with DOO, would say 'so what's the difference?'

We must use different Northern services. Can't remember the last time I didn't see the guard at some point during the journey.

 

[rich r]

We must use different Northern services. Can't remember the last time I didn't see the guard at some point during the journey.

Very common on my evening commute from Leeds not to see one. Often it's because there's too many people packed in the Pacers for them to even get out of the rear cab though rather than them not wanting to walk through.
But given Leeds has barriers, they don't really need to check or sell tickets until a few stations along after people have started getting off and it then becomes possible to walk down.

 

[313103]

We must use different Northern services. Can't remember the last time I didn't see the guard at some point during the journey.

Don't forget that a certain political agenda is being driven here. People who want DOO will say they never ever see a guard and that he or she is always HIDING in the back cab.

I didn't see a Guard on my 16:12 Reading to Richmond service yesterday, so that must mean that Guards on SWT hide in either the rear cab of the train or the middle of the train, the fact I heard numerous PAs by someone saying he was the guard, does not prove he indeed was the guard as I never saw him. This is the logic used by many supporters of DOO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On that route they are non commercial guards, aren't they?

 

[northwichcat]

I was on a train last week where on arrival the conductor announced he was unable to sell tickets due to no machines being available at Victoria. So sometimes even if a conductor wants to issue tickets they might not be able to

The guard on the service I mentioned had a machine because he used it when he was answering the query of the passenger before dispatching the train. Even if it wouldn't print tickets then an appearance in the train would have meant he was available to answer any queries.

 

[northwichcat]

so that must mean that Guards on SWT hide in either the rear cab of the train or the middle of the train

Of course there is the odd Conductor who does hide in their cab

If a Northern guard refers to his colleagues who don't do revenue/customer service duties as hiding in the cab, then I think it's safe to presume it's not Northern policy for guards to remain in the cab. Different TOCs have different policies. For instance, on the non-underground sections of Merseyrail it's very common to see the guard walk through but it's uncommon for them to ask to see your ticket.

 

[313103]

On that route they are non commercial guards, aren't they?

That I don't know but what difference would it make?

All I keep hearing is that all guards do is 'HIDE' in the back cab. Perhaps I am seeing Fake news or even alternative facts, because on the whole that is not my experience.

Perhaps those who say they always hide in the cab, try to look for it and find it and when a guard is seen it is then either deliberately or mistakenly forgotten about, I don't know but when I travel I see a guard (on those trains that have them) more often then I don't.

On DOO trains I do not expect to see anyone, and more often then not that was the experience. Very rarely have I had the experience of seeing a member of staff on a DOO service and never when I have travelled on the NLL. But at the end of the day it is what most on here advocate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Non commercial guards don't need to leave the back cab.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern have released a list of stations which will get no Northern services on each of the 3 strike days: https://be803fe5c416e39d38ae-aa2108...les/2017-07-08/No-service-additional-copy.pdf

 

[roversfan2001]

Northern have released a list of stations which will get no Northern services on each of the 3 strike days: https://be803fe5c416e39d38ae-aa2108...les/2017-07-08/No-service-additional-copy.pdf

Not at all surprised Leyland gets no service for all 3 days. Presumably the next stop down the line, with fewer users per year, also gets no service, or does that get an hourly/2-hourly service on all 3 days? The last one is the right answer. :roll:

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure on previous strikes the Settle-Carlisle got a replacement bus ? It seems a much more restricted service this time around.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm sure on previous strikes the Settle-Carlisle got a replacement bus ? It seems a much more restricted service this time around.

There are less services operating this time. Settle-Carlisle will have 2 return rail workings on the Monday though.

 

[yorksrob]

There are less services operating this time. Settle-Carlisle will have 2 return rail workings on the Monday though.

That's interesting. I noticed that Appleby was on the list as not getting any Northern services.

 

[northwichcat]

That's interesting. I noticed that Appleby was on the list as not getting any Northern services.

You either didn't read the column headings or didn't look at the Monday column.

 

[yorksrob]

You either didn't read the column headings or didn't look at the Monday column.

Ah apologies - it's difficult to see all the details on these mobile phones !

 

[northernchris]

When changing trains at Shipley this afternoon I was handed a leaflet from the local Labour group with some info on the strike. It was surprisingly accurate, and I will be contacting my MP as suggested just to see if he bothers to respond but given he has done sod all for the area I can't imagine he will

 

[313103]

When changing trains at Shipley this afternoon I was handed a leaflet from the local Labour group with some info on the strike. It was surprisingly accurate, and I will be contacting my MP as suggested just to see if he bothers to respond but given he has done sod all for the area I can't imagine he will

Aside from that did the "guard" come through and check tickets, or did hide in the back cab?

 

[TEW]

Non commercial guards don't need to leave the back cab.

Yes they do. All guards on SWT are required to be visible throughout the journey wherever possible, regardless of whether they are checking tickets or not. On Desiros guards should normally be working the train from within the passenger saloons, not the cab.

 

[northwichcat]

Well it seems Northern can't even find staff for all of the 4 booked return workings between Altrincham and Chester today, when they operated a lot more workings the last time there was a strike on a Saturday.