Court Case for unpaid Penalty Fare

[cbirduk]

Hi
Couldn't purchase a ticket due to long queues at Teignmouth Station. I am too dyslexic to use automatic ticket machine. Tried to buy ticket on train. Ticket refused and penalty fare issued which I appealed unsuccessfully. But email refusing appeal was gibberish and ended up in Spam so I lost chance to pay and then incurred £50 admin on top! This feels so unfair I am going to court to fight it. Any advice?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would suggest you will probably have to pay the £50 plus fare. You may be able to get away with an argument that reasonable adjustments were not made for your disability, but this would be likely to fail and as such you would end up paying much more.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would suggest you will probably have to pay the £50 plus fare. You may be able to get away with an argument that reasonable adjustments were not made for your disability, but this would be likely to fail and as such you would end up paying much more.

I concur. Long queues at the booking office are not a defence to failing to show a ticket on demand.

Pay immediately.

 

[221129]

If you go to Court you WILL lose.

 

[tony_mac]

While I don't think losing at a magistrates court is an absolute certainty, I understand that people are convicted in similar circumstances.
But to give some idea of the risks involved...

Fines have typically been in the £300-£400 range, plus the 10% victim surcharge. Prosecution costs of around £150 for a guilty plea, possibly more for a not guilty plea.
(e.g., http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/14196648.Man_who_dodged___2_50_rail_fare_is_hit_with___886_fine/)

With the additional stress, time, and expense of a trip to the magistrates court - it is probably more practical to just swallow your pride and pay the settlement.

 

[cuccir]

There is no legal way of 'challenging' a Penalty Fare in court. However if you refuse to pay it, Great Western may try and take you to prosecute you, which is where the court would come in.

To successfully defend yourself if prosecuted, you or a lawyer would have to successfully convince the magistrates that (1) the queues were sufficiently long AND (2) your dyslexia is sufficiently severe that you couldn't use the Ticket Vending Machines, such that in combination there was effectively no ticket purchasing facilities for you.

As tony_mac outlines, paying this will make the problem go away. Challenging it will take time, possibly money, and carries the risk of defeat; like tony_mac, I also don't see defeat as guaranteed, but there is no established maximum waiting time in law for a ticket, so it would be a case of relying on you or your lawyer convincing a magistrate. How long did you estimate the wait to be and how long would this have delayed your journey?

Do you have a payment deadline for the penalty fare + admin fee (and how much is it in total)? If you have time, email the Great Western Prosecutions Department (gwrprosecutions@gwr.com), making your case clearly and objectively with a focus on (1) and (2) from above, and offer to send a cheque with the fare owed for the journey you were making. You can then see what their response is and act accordingly.

Despite seeing the chance that there may be a way out if you negotiate with Great Western, I would reiterate the advice that paying now will end this.

 

[furlong]

Any advice?

How much time did you actually allow to purchase the ticket at the ticket office before departure of the train?

For how long did you actually wait in the queue before giving up so as not to miss the train?

Were those times self-evidently excessive, or do you think people will conclude you neither left yourself enough time to buy a ticket at the station nor took mitigating action such as approaching the conductor directly to ask to buy a ticket straight away?

Did you walk past a poster reminding you that you must have a ticket before boarding?

Was there anyone nearby you could have asked for help with using the ticket machine?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If you really want to challenge your case in court, can you provide proof from your GP (i.e. a letter) that you are dyslexic and cannot use a ticket machine?

Do you have other issues such as impaired cognitive processing?

The court may ask you why you did not seek assistance from somebody when trying to use a ticket machine as well as the question asked by furlong as to how much time did you allow yourself between arriving at the station and your train.

I understand that it is not acceptable to wait for an unnecessary length of time at a ticket office but could this be challenged/proved in court?

How do you normally manage when using public transport?

 

[yorkie]

This feels so unfair I am going to court to fight it. Any advice?

Seek qualified legal advice and ensure you appoint an experienced solicitor who is familiar with the relevant legislation.

Under no circumstances consider representing yourself in court.

Presumably the ticket office was closed at Teignmouth, is that right?

 

[221129]

Seek qualified legal advice and ensure you appoint an experienced solicitor who is familiar with the relevant legislation.

Under no circumstances consider representing yourself in court.

Presumably the ticket office was closed at Teignmouth, is that right?

No it was open, and there was a queue, unknown how long the OP waited or allowed between arrival and Train.

 

[Puffing Devil]

This is an open and shut case under the Byelaws, you could and would be found guilty.

The magistrates may be persuaded to give an absolute discharge, given the circumstances surrounding the offence. ie guilty, but no penalty. Costs may still be awarded, as may the value of the fare unpaid fare.

The magistrates may be unconvinced and decide on a fine. This could be appealed to a higher court on the basis of a convention violation.

Any court appearance is fraught with danger and hidden costs. Unless you have a tame lawyer or the backing of a campaign group to cover costs, I would not be going down that road.

A letter of apology to the TOC explaining and evidencing the disability together with separate cheques for the unpaid fare and the penalty fare may yield a result.

 

[RPI]

If the appeal was not upheld then the appeals service will have investigated already things like whether the facilities were available etc, also I assume that you provided some form of evidence of your condition to the appeals service? Teignmouth is a pretty good station for keeping queues down and the station staff there are extremely proactive and very pro revenue, the staff in that area have a WhatsApp group which is used for updates such as queues, TVM failures, booking office closures and queues, the staff at that particular station all post on the WhatsApp group so it's safe to say that in nearly all cases the inspector will have all of the relevant info before deciding to PF, MG or sell a ticket.
What will happen now if you don't pay? The PF will be cancelled and a summons issued for avoidance of the single fare, this can either be under the bylaws or RoRA.

 

[philthetube]

There is no legal way of 'challenging' a Penalty Fare in court. However if you refuse to pay it, Great Western may try and take you to prosecute you, which is where the court would come in.

To successfully defend yourself if prosecuted, you or a lawyer would have to successfully convince the magistrates that (1) the queues were sufficiently long AND (2) your dyslexia is sufficiently severe that you couldn't use the Ticket Vending Machines, such that in combination there was effectively no ticket purchasing facilities for you.

As tony_mac outlines, paying this will make the problem go away. Challenging it will take time, possibly money, and carries the risk of defeat; like tony_mac, I also don't see defeat as guaranteed, but there is no established maximum waiting time in law for a ticket, so it would be a case of relying on you or your lawyer convincing a magistrate. How long did you estimate the wait to be and how long would this have delayed your journey?

Do you have a payment deadline for the penalty fare + admin fee (and how much is it in total)? If you have time, email the Great Western Prosecutions Department (gwrprosecutions@gwr.com), making your case clearly and objectively with a focus on (1) and (2) from above, and offer to send a cheque with the fare owed for the journey you were making. You can then see what their response is and act accordingly.

Despite seeing the chance that there may be a way out if you negotiate with Great Western, I would reiterate the advice that paying now will end this.

If you have a tight deadline for payment enclose cheques for both amounts and hope they cash the small one.

 

[cbirduk]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I should clarify that I refused the £20 and £50 admin so GWR then demanded £130 - refused this so they are now threatening the 'Single Justice' court. Main complaint is that the email rejecting appeal was nonsense and ended up in Spam - they blame our anti-virus software but has never happened before. So I lost chance to pay the £20 which I would have done despite it being unfair.

 

[CheesyChips]

"Unfair" isn't a practically helpful argument in all of this so best to let that slide and focus on being pragmatic about the situation.

 

[Clip]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I should clarify that I refused the £20 and £50 admin so GWR then demanded £130 - refused this so they are now threatening the 'Single Justice' court. Main complaint is that the email rejecting appeal was nonsense and ended up in Spam - they blame our anti-virus software but has never happened before. So I lost chance to pay the £20 which I would have done despite it being unfair.

You shouldve paid the £20 there and then and then appeal as you have found out to your cost that you wetn round it the wrong way.

It is not GWR fault their emails went into your spam folder either.

 

[Llanigraham]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I should clarify that I refused the £20 and £50 admin so GWR then demanded £130 - refused this so they are now threatening the 'Single Justice' court. Main complaint is that the email rejecting appeal was nonsense and ended up in Spam - they blame our anti-virus software but has never happened before. So I lost chance to pay the £20 which I would have done despite it being unfair.

3 points:
1/ If you have a spam filter then you should regularly check it, so you were at error.
2/ It was not unfair or illegal, therefore you could (should) have paid it.
3/ The only person at error here is you in not waiting in the queue to buy your ticket.

 

[DaleCooper]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I should clarify that I refused the £20 and £50 admin so GWR then demanded £130 - refused this so they are now threatening the 'Single Justice' court. Main complaint is that the email rejecting appeal was nonsense and ended up in Spam - they blame our anti-virus software but has never happened before. So I lost chance to pay the £20 which I would have done despite it being unfair.

Unless you explain in what way the GWR email was nonsense I can't see how it can be their fault it ended up in your spam folder.

 

[6Gman]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I should clarify that I refused the £20 and £50 admin so GWR then demanded £130 - refused this so they are now threatening the 'Single Justice' court. Main complaint is that the email rejecting appeal was nonsense and ended up in Spam - they blame our anti-virus software but has never happened before. So I lost chance to pay the £20 which I would have done despite it being unfair.

The correct course of action should surely have been to pay the Penalty Fare at the time and then submit the appeal?

You also haven't explained how the e-mail rejecting your appeal was "nonsense" - one would assume they follow a standard basic format.

 

[Master29]

3 points:
1/ If you have a spam filter then you should regularly check it, so you were at error.
2/ It was not unfair or illegal, therefore you could (should) have paid it.
3/ The only person at error here is you in not waiting in the queue to buy your ticket.

3rd point not strictly true under reasonable time to purchase ticket guidelines.

 

[furlong]

Normally people on this forum suggest paying the penalty fare immediately and then relying on the appeals process/customer service/Transport Focus and occasionally the civil courts to try to get your money back if you have genuine evidence that the Penalty Fare should not have been issued.

Delays in paying generally only increase the potential amount you'll have to pay if you ultimately lose. The cards are stacked in favour of the train company in situations like these.

 

[gray1404]

Could you please confirm if there are any medical reasons why you cannot use a ticket office?

GWR publication entitled: Making rail accessible:
Helping older and disabled people states:
"If you can’t buy a ticket before you get on the train, you’ll be able
to buy one (with any discount you’re entitled to) on the train or at
your destination, without penalty."

 

[Clip]

Could you please confirm if there are any medical reasons why you cannot use a ticket office?

GWR publication entitled: Making rail accessible:
Helping older and disabled people states:
"If you can’t buy a ticket before you get on the train, you’ll be able
to buy one (with any discount you’re entitled to) on the train or at
your destination, without penalty."

There wasn't a medical reason they couldn't use the ticket office just that it seemed a bit 'busy'.

Its the TVM they claim to be unable to use.

 

[Fare-Cop]

3rd point not strictly true under reasonable time to purchase ticket guidelines.

Not an exemption under the strict liability requirement of the Byelaws I'm afraid.

 

[furlong]

You wouldn't expect the company to prosecute when there were significant queues - in other words, if the alleged offence would not have happened without the occurrence of specifically identifiable failures of the company itself (with reference to franchise agreement/penalty fares scheme rules/policies/advertising/industry custom and best practice etc.). The defendant might make submissions that a prosecution in such circumstances would amount to an abuse of the process of the court, for example, hoping to get it stopped - but of course nothing is certain and the courts might or might not agree.

 

[najaB]

You wouldn't expect the company to prosecute when there were significant queues...

For some values of "significant".

 

[cbirduk]

Thanks for further comments. Finally got to speak to someone at GWR who was reasonable and they agreed to drop the court case and scrap all the additional admin fees. So I agreed to pay the penalty fare to see an end to the matter. I think I had made a pretty good case so not sure if they thought they would lose or were just being human!