Night Overground

[CheeseOnToast]

Midland Main Line can go down to a two track railway, Brighton Main Line can run as a two track railway or use bi-di south of Balcombe Tunnel Junction, Thameslink core can run on one line using the bi-di, Sydenham corridor has none of that.

Also where are you going to get the maintenance staff from? Rewriting rosters isn't always easy nor always an option.

 

[Busaholic]

Was it only 2009? It does seem silly, seeing the last service is 2am and is reasonably used. Its a quick fix just to run the extra 3 hours and extend to NXG.

It always seemed half-hearted, just 3 buses to cover the route even at weekends, at half hourly intervals. I must admit that even if I was younger I wouldn't have fancied hanging around a bus stop in Croydon at 2 a.m., it can be fairly scary, and I'm sure the service was provided with Croydon nightlife in mind.

 

[AlanFry1]

I hope they extend the night service to the lea valley line, which has many night buses because it is incredibly busy! More trains are needed to serve the large and bustling areas of Hackney, Tottenham, Edmonton, Enfield, Walthamstow and Chingford

 

[Bald Rick]

Midland Main Line can go down to a two track railway, Brighton Main Line can run as a two track railway or use bi-di south of Balcombe Tunnel Junction, Thameslink core can run on one line using the bi-di, Sydenham corridor has none of that.

Also where are you going to get the maintenance staff from? Rewriting rosters isn't always easy nor always an option.

This is the point. More and more operators are wanting to run later services (and earlier services). This eats into maintenance time. Once the no trains period is lower than about 3 1/2 hours on the DC network, there is no point planning any work. The usual 'ask' is to shift all work to a Saturday night / Sunday morning or Sunday night / Monday morning. However there aren't enough maintenance guys and girls to do this. So you need more people, and someone has to pay for them. Network Rail is not funded to do this, so the train operators have to pay (through paying higher access charges) as a condition of running later services. They usually don't want to.

Then at the same time Network Rail is under huge pressure to improve performance. Yet can't get onto the line to maintain it.

re running the ELL south of New Cross gate. It is not the slow lines that are the main problem, but Norwood Junction. That has trains all night, every night, except for a brief window Saturday night / Sunday morning when the maintenance is done. Of course that could be moved to another night of the week, but then a lot of other services would have to go, and morning start up at
Selhurst would be interesting.

 

[Bald Rick]

I hope they extend the night service to the lea valley line, which has many night buses because it is incredibly busy! More trains are needed to serve the large and bustling areas of Hackney, Tottenham, Edmonton, Enfield, Walthamstow and Chingford

Most of which are not on the lea valley line!

 

[FOH]

So LO could feasibly run to Crystal Palace then?

 

[Antman]

The thing is, they manage 24 hours, 6 days a week on the Midland, Thameslink core and Brighton ML. 24 hours, just 2 days a week shouldn't be impossible on the Sydenham Corridor. I just can't see how NR couldn't cope with 2 out of 7 days being 24 hour, especially when more than 2 days a week, the overnight Thameslink used the Sydenham Corridor before the London Bridge works and will do so again.

Well that's what I tend to think, seems to be no problem on LO/LU tracks but a no go on NR?

 

[Antman]

It always seemed half-hearted, just 3 buses to cover the route even at weekends, at half hourly intervals. I must admit that even if I was younger I wouldn't have fancied hanging around a bus stop in Croydon at 2 a.m., it can be fairly scary, and I'm sure the service was provided with Croydon nightlife in mind.

I don't know what was half hearted about it? TfL just deemed the route not to be viable. Croydon can be a bit rowdy on a Friday or Saturday night but I'd hardly call it scary.

 

[Busaholic]

I don't know what was half hearted about it? TfL just deemed the route not to be viable. Croydon can be a bit rowdy on a Friday or Saturday night but I'd hardly call it scary.

I suggest you look at the crime statistics for the area.

 

[Antman]

I suggest you look at the crime statistics for the area.

Well I've had a few nights out in Croydon and never felt in anyway apprehensive about being there.

As for the N75 it's probably only justified on Friday and Saturday night although a night service on LO south of NXG would be better.

 

[Clip]

I suggest you look at the crime statistics for the area.

You shouldnt really base how scary somewhere is on crime stats. Croydon is becoming very popular now with tons of housing going up and also the likes of Boxpark opening more and more people are going in to it from the Sydenham corridor and whilst I understand the issues surrounding maintenance and staffing not having a service apart from buses to get people in and out is probably having a major effect on stopping people from going there and up to town for a night out also as noo one likes a night bus or two home

 

[Skoodle]

We had nearly a year of a 20mph Temporary Speed Restriction going down to Crystal Palace, and currently a 20mph Emergency Speed Restriction between Honor Oak Park and Brockley that's been in place for over a week now. I can hardly trust NR to do any work to allow night services south of New Cross Gate.

 

[theageofthetra]

Since the introduction of night tube services the situation around Brixton high st at 3-4am has become unworkable. The combination of local bars & clubs kicking out + those arriving off the night tube is causing dangerous overcrowding near the bus stops for night busses.

The lack of any equivalent of the night tube network north of the river is going to make it inevitable that pressure from the London Assembly will lead to one or two NR lines in South London running through the night on Fri/Sat. My moneys on Orpington-Vic but perhaps only as far as Bromley South.

 

[telstarbox]

Brixton was always busy before the Night Tube though - and there used to be more night venues than there are now.

 

[Busaholic]

Well I've had a few nights out in Croydon and never felt in anyway apprehensive about being there.

As for the N75 it's probably only justified on Friday and Saturday night although a night service on LO south of NXG would be better.

TfL did introduce some Friday/Saturday only night routes in conjunction with the Tube night services, but they were all the exact replicas of day routes, so didn't need a 'N' prefix: whether they'd be prepared to start an entirely new night route, deviating from daytime routes, just for two nights a week is another matter.

 

[AlanFry1]

Most of which are not on the lea valley line!

Lea Valley Metro is everything btwn Bethnal Green/Stratford and Cheshunt, Enfield and Cheshunt.

Lea Valley is everything else.

 

[Joe Paxton]

...
The lack of any equivalent of the night tube network north of the river is going to make it inevitable that pressure from the London Assembly will lead to one or two NR lines in South London running through the night on Fri/Sat. My moneys on Orpington-Vic but perhaps only as far as Bromley South.

Not going to happen as a non-TfL controlled service.

The issue of Network Rail making their infrastructure available to night-time passenger services remains for any proposals, and I think the only push for that will come from TfL.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Brixton was always busy before the Night Tube though - and there used to be more night venues than there are now.

Yep, and Brixton in the daytime is heaving with people transferring from Tube to bus and vice versa, it's a very busy interchange.

 

[infobleep]

Midland Main Line can go down to a two track railway, Brighton Main Line can run as a two track railway or use bi-di south of Balcombe Tunnel Junction, Thameslink core can run on one line using the bi-di, Sydenham corridor has none of that.

Also where are you going to get the maintenance staff from? Rewriting rosters isn't always easy nor always an option.

Out of interest, could the Sydenham corridor be bi-dierectional? Could additional point work be added? After all I doubt South of Balcombe tunnel was always bi-dierectional.

Would that make any difference to the ability to undertake night running?


I make no comment on the cost of doing it of course. It may not be financially work it, even if it's doable technically.

 

[takno]

Out of interest, could the Sydenham corridor be bi-dierectional? Could additional point work be added? After all I doubt South of Balcombe tunnel was always bi-dierectional.

Would that make any difference to the ability to undertake night running?


I make no comment on the cost of doing it of course. It may not be financially work it, even if it's doable technically.

Given that half of it has been fairly recently resignalled as non bi-di I can't see any case for changing it stacking up. There also aren't really any crossovers to support bi-di working - you'd have to run wrong line from the crossover between Canada Water and Surrey Quays, which doesn't appear to be signalled appropriately either. There is also no easy way to add in passing loops, so it would be a 25 min block section, meaning an hourly service each way with not much resilience for delays.

 

[Sunset route]

Out of interest, could the Sydenham corridor be bi-dierectional? Could additional point work be added? After all I doubt South of Balcombe tunnel was always bi-dierectional.

Would that make any difference to the ability to undertake night running?


I make no comment on the cost of doing it of course. It may not be financially work it, even if it's doable technically.

South of Balcombe Tunnel Junction has had Bi-Directional signalling since 1984, ever since TBASC took over the signalling of the BML. However the section from Balcombe Tunnel Junction to Copyhold Junction has had it Bi-Directional signalling modernised with more signal sections added for the reverse direction. Which basically increases that section from 3 trains an hour per direction to 6 trains an hour per direction in flights of 3, i.e. You send 3 trains down to Brighton followed by sending 3 trains up from Brighton and repeat with none calling at Balcombe.

The Sydenham corridor is signalled with lines paired by direction and not by use. So to have trains running bi-directionally you would need crossers at ever staion to allow the trains traveling reverse to normal flow to weave in and out of the ones travelling in the normal direction, plus all the signalling and the necessary point work at New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction. It would cost a fortune and for that all you end up with is what is essentially a single line with passing loops, where by the loops are between stations and th single line runs through the platforms.

Also you would need to re-route Thameslink services away from London Bridge over night to make space for ELL to run reverse direction over the fast lines.

 

[Skoodle]

Given that half of it has been fairly recently resignalled as non bi-di I can't see any case for changing it stacking up. There also aren't really any crossovers to support bi-di working - you'd have to run wrong line from the crossover between Canada Water and Surrey Quays, which doesn't appear to be signalled appropriately either. There is also no easy way to add in passing loops, so it would be a 25 min block section, meaning an hourly service each way with not much resilience for delays.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say about running wrong road from the crossover at Canada Water? Platform 1 at New Cross Gate is bi-directional, heading back north you then go on to the "NXG Reversible" along side the wash road and then join back up to the Up ELL at Canal Junction. There is a shunt we do from the Up Sussex Loop, across to the Down Sussex Slow, go beyond where the Down ELL joins on to the Down Sussex Slow then back through Platform 1. Currently when there is no service beyond New Cross Gate, all trains terminate and head back northbound via Platform 1.

At the moment I don't see the point of running fast if you're only calling at a handful of stations.

Southbound from New Cross Gate: if you are leaving from Platform 1 (usual platform for LO), there is currently no place to cross on to the down fast. If you're already on the Down Sussex Fast at NXG, the only places you can cross back to the slow is just beyond platform at Forest Hill and before Norwood Junction.

On the Up, only places to cross from Slow to Fast is at Norwood Junction and Sydenham. If you're on the Fast, only way to cross back to the slow is after New Cross Gate, with no direct way back on to the Up ELL flyover. (You have to either go in to the Up Sussex Loop and shunt back in to platform 5, or the shunt I mentioned above).

It's just too impractical, so for London Overground south of New Cross Gate I believe it will be all or nothing.

 

[takno]

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say about running wrong road from the crossover at Canada Water? Platform 1 at New Cross Gate is bi-directional, heading back north you then go on to the "NXG Reversible" along side the wash road and then join back up to the Up ELL at Canal Junction. There is a shunt we do from the Up Sussex Loop, across to the Down Sussex Slow, go beyond where the Down ELL joins on to the Down Sussex Slow then back through Platform 1. Currently when there is no service beyond New Cross Gate, all trains terminate and head back northbound via Platform 1.

To be honest I was looking at working down trains on the up slow. You'd need to be able to use both of the slow lines on different nights to allow maintenance.

Seems odd to be discussing night trains on the route on a day when there aren't any day trains...

 

[Bald Rick]

Lea Valley Metro is everything btwn Bethnal Green/Stratford and Cheshunt, Enfield and Cheshunt.

Lea Valley is everything else.

Says who?

 

[Class 170101]

If All Night Running is important. Why doesn't TfL use the Section 4 times to its advantage?

Both the NLL between Stratford and Camden Road and the GOB have no Section 4 times Monday to Friday nights currently.

 

[telstarbox]

These are now in the timetable from the night of Friday 15 December:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/basic/DKJ/2017/12/16/0200

 

[telstarbox]

If All Night Running is important. Why doesn't TfL use the Section 4 times to its advantage?

Both the NLL between Stratford and Camden Road and the GOB have no Section 4 times Monday to Friday nights currently.

Probably because there's more of a market for night travel on the ELL, with lots of nightlife around Dalston, Shoreditch and to a lesser extent New Cross.

 

[Joe Paxton]

These are now in the timetable from the night of Friday 15 December:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/basic/DKJ/2017/12/16/0200

Great stuff. This will be very popular.

 

[HowardGWR]

For new readers, like me, post #23 explains what Section 4 is (I discovered).

 

[frediculous]

These are now in the timetable from the night of Friday 15 December:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/basic/DKJ/2017/12/16/0200

Is there a reason why no services are stopping at Whitechapel? Is that due to Cross rail works?