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EMT: "Your responsibility to approach the TM or Senior Conductor"

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northwichcat

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It's not hard to look along a 4-car train from a central position on a quiet platform and see the guard. It's really not.

How does someone who doesn't make regular journeys know it will be a 4 car train or that a 4 car EMT service might be 30m longer than a 4 car Northern service?

If it's evening peak and someone wants to travel to Warrington there might not be many passengers boarding but there might be loads of people alighting. Trying to make your way through a crowd towards the guard might result in the guard not seeing you and starting the dispatch process before you get to them.
 
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Bletchleyite

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How does someone who doesn't make regular journeys know it will be a 4 car train or that a 4 car EMT service might be 30m longer than a 4 car Northern service?

The PIS can tell you the train length. If it doesn't, somebody needs to upgrade their PIS software.

If it's evening peak and someone wants to travel to Warrington there might not be many passengers boarding but there might be loads of people alighting. Trying to make your way through a crowd towards the guard might result in the guard not seeing you and starting the dispatch process before you get to them.

The guard steps onto the platform before any door is released, usually.

It's a non issue. Really, it is.
 

bunnahabhain

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Widnes ticket office opening hours:
Monday - Friday 07:00 - 14:25
Saturday 07:00 - 14:25
Sunday Closed

So outside of those hours do all passengers who don't already have a ticket need to proceed to the door the guard releases the doors from and all individually tell him/her they need a ticket? Will EMT increase the dwell time at Widnes to allow that without delaying the train?
It's an unstaffed shack with an unreliable Parkeon machine on the up side only, and a part time BO, so I usually sell anything out there to avoid the hassle.
 
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MichaelAMW

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Are people getting a bit excited about this? It doesn't say that you have to seek out the guard but approach him or her as soon as you can. That may simply intend to mean you speak to the guard the first time you encounter them, which may be at the door if they are near to where you intend to board the train or the *first* time they walk past you on their rounds. I read the poster as EMT emphasising that the passenger must understand they have an active responsibility to pay for their travel even when the station doesn't afford such an opportunity. The guard walks past and you keep your trap shut - you've crossed the line.
 

Bletchleyite

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If that's what they mean it should say "you should take a seat and identify yourself to a member of staff when they pass through the train".

It'd then be quite legitimate to have some RPIs pass through after the guard and do some PFing :)
 

northwichcat

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The PIS can tell you the train length. If it doesn't, somebody needs to upgrade their PIS software.

I've never seen a PIS which says train length - 92m or similar. If you mean number of carriages then it's irrelevant in response to the point I made.

The guard steps onto the platform before any door is released, usually.

It's a non issue. Really, it is.

Some Northern passengers think their trains operate without guards because they never see the guard. You're looking at the situation from a railway enthusiast view, not from the view of an occasional passenger who wouldn't know a member of rail staff was rail staff just from the colour of their clothes or that the first person to appear should be the guard.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I've never seen a PIS which says train length - 92m or similar. If you mean number of carriages then it's irrelevant in response to the point I made.

Pacers are going away soon so they are irrelevant. The difference between 4x20m and 4x23m is 12m, which is insignificant in terms of looking along the train.

Some Northern passengers think there trains operate without guards because they never see the guard. You're looking at the situation from a railway enthusiast view, not from the view of an occasional passenger who wouldn't know a member of rail staff was rail staff just from the colour of their clothes or that the first person to appear should be the guard.

Which is why I propose those three specified options as being the only possible ones, with clear publicity in every case.
 

northwichcat

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Pacers are going away soon so they are irrelevant. The difference between 4x20m and 4x23m is 12m, which is insignificant in terms of looking along the train.

As EMT are saying this is the policy now, while it's over 2 years before all Pacers are on it's still relevant at this time. They'll also soon be stations where both 20m and 26m stock stop there but not necessarily in the EMT area.
 

Starmill

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Someone I know was saying recently how much better their local Northern service used to be when it had a guard on the train to sell them a ticket and tell them how to get to places...


How is your nonsense about train lengths relevant? No passengers take not of train length in metres! Especially not in the context of paying their fare. Absolute nonsense, move on.
 
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northwichcat

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How is your nonsense about train lengths relevant? No passengers take not of train length in metres! Especially not in the context of paying their fare. Absolute nonsense, move on.

It's not nonsense in the context being referred to. What is nonsense is the idea of all passengers without tickets making their way to the door the guard appears from when the set has 8 sets of passengers doors. Even if you told ticket-less passengers to board via the most rear door they wouldn't all finish up waiting in the right place on the platform just because the CIS says the number of carriages and carriages aren't all the same length.
 
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High Dyke

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Time to install a couple of TVMs, then.

Cake. Eat.

:)
If they're like the ones installed at a few unstaffed EMT serviced stations they'll spend a lot of time out of service...

Newark Castle had a TVM installed on the Up platform only, with a notice on the down platform advising to purchase a ticket before travelling. Now the station also has a ticket office. In many cases though the ticket offices that EMT have at smaller stations Sleaford etc are only open part-time, with many unstaffed station without any facility to purchase tickets prior to boarding.
 

mailbyrail

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I use Matlock occasionally and the machine is out of order about 1 in 3 trips.
Not sure if it's just me that's unlucky or the machine really is so prone to breakdown, but it can't be the only one that is unreliable.
The traincrews on this line are regularly helpful though so it's not a problem, but I doubt the same would apply on all EMT routes
 

Cantab26

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3. Penalty Fares on DOO services. Absolute compulsory ticketing, i.e. anyone boarding without a ticket is automatically subject to a PF with no excuse acceptable whatsoever. All stations on these services must have at least two TVMs with both card and cash acceptance. In the event of failure or need for a ticket the TVM can't do, the passenger must telephone for a reference number as per Metrolink. This would be city commuter type services.

This is not quite how the Manchester Metrolink is actually set up, regardless of whether TfGM might wish it were otherwise. I say this as someone who has had cause to enter lengthy correspondence with them on the point.

Whilst I am not at liberty to disclose the precise nature of these discussions, suffice it to say that there are circumstances in which a passenger may use Metrolink services without being in physical possession of a ticket and in which at the same time a standard fare may not be charged. Should the need arise, I would go so far as to give a client a formal legal opinion to that effect.

EDIT: to clarify, this would also be without obtaining a 'reference number' either.
 
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as1981

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It doesn't say that you have to seek out the guard but approach him or her as soon as you can. That may simply intend to mean you speak to the guard the first time you encounter them, which may be at the door if they are near to where you intend to board the train or the *first* time they walk past you on their rounds. I read the poster as EMT emphasising that the passenger must understand they have an active responsibility to pay for their travel even when the station doesn't afford such an opportunity. The guard walks past and you keep your trap shut - you've crossed the line.

I also see this as being the intention of the EMT statement although it needs clarifying. I think the intention is basically to make people aware that if the guard walks past then "The guard didn't ask me if I wanted a ticket" isn't a valid excuse.
 

Haywain

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This is not quite how the Manchester Metrolink is actually set up, regardless of whether TfGM might wish it were otherwise. I say this as someone who has had cause to enter lengthy correspondence with them on the point.

Whilst I am not at liberty to disclose the precise nature of these discussions, suffice it to say that there are circumstances in which a passenger may use Metrolink services without being in physical possession of a ticket and in which at the same time a standard fare may not be charged. Should the need arise, I would go so far as to give a client a formal legal opinion to that effect.

EDIT: to clarify, this would also be without obtaining a 'reference number' either.

On the whole, these comments could be regarded as unhelpful and leave the general reader of this forum unclear as to how they should proceed if they find a Metrolink stop without a functioning TVM. Would you advise that general reader to obtain a reference number or not?
 

sheff1

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How many stations with no ticketing facilities on EMT's network are served by such trains?

Why do those stations not have at least one TVM?

Langley Mill for one. Anyone familiar with the station and area will realise why there is no TVM.
 

Starmill

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This whole "Oh, a TVM will solve your problem!" argument does not carry much more water than asking everyone to board through the guards door or whatever nonsense they were expecting.

I don't think Northern have a single cash TVM left, for example. What are you supposed to do if you require a ticket that the TVM can't sell, or if you have a warrant or RTV? Or if Northern have put the TVM inside the booking office, so when that's closed... Sure, you could say well let's phase out RTVs and warrants and find a way to accept cash (because apparently this is too difficult for Northern - even at staffed stations such as Wilmslow and Stockport they no longer take cash) and make a TVM that can sell every conceivable type of ticket. So the question becomes why has this not been done already? And would it not, actually, be more cost effective and more beneficial to have some more RPIs instead?

Metrolink's stops are all quite secure. None lack for CCTV and most are new, or refurbished, with security in mind. Even so their TVMs have been subject to attacks and have had to be updated with enhanced security. It's very rare that you would find a small Northern or EMT station that could be made as secure as a newly constructed Metrolink stop.
 
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Starmill

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On the whole, these comments could be regarded as unhelpful and leave the general reader of this forum unclear as to how they should proceed if they find a Metrolink stop without a functioning TVM. Would you advise that general reader to obtain a reference number or not?

Exactly. In my experience, the probability that you will arrive at the stop and find it with not even a single working ticket machine (no stop has fewer than 2 machines, and the majority have more than that, and they will be placed on each platform) is very very low. If you are unlucky enough to encounter that, the solution is very simply to use the help point which every stop is provided with a couple of - can that be said of every Northern or EMT station? There is not even always a requirement to remember a reference number. Sometimes if you are happy to give your name they will merely record that and you can travel just by giving your name. From what I have heard, if your journey is one way, there is no expectation from Metrolink on you to actually pay for that journey as there would be with a train journey, where you must pay at the end of even a single trip, if you can. It's more like a bus where the ticket machine is out of order - no fares are taken and travel is free. Of course you should still use the machine on your way back, or follow whatever other instructions they might give.
 
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Cantab26

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On the whole, these comments could be regarded as unhelpful and leave the general reader of this forum unclear as to how they should proceed if they find a Metrolink stop without a functioning TVM. Would you advise that general reader to obtain a reference number or not?

If commencing a journey at a Metrolink stop where no ticket vending machines are in working order, passengers should use the help point and follow the instructions given.

The point I was making was that the Manchester Metrolink cannot be used as an example of 'option 3' set out in post no. 27 because it is not governed in that manner.
 
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PeterC

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There can only ever be one guard on a train, however formed.
True but to somebody not conversant with the minutiae of railway operation "guard" and "conductor" are synonyms.
 

cjmillsnun

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True but to somebody not conversant with the minutiae of railway operation "guard" and "conductor" are synonyms.

Not helped by different TOCs calling the safety critical guard role either guard (SWT), conductor (GTR - for the few that are left), or Train Manager (Virgin and VTEC). Note the TOCs in brackets are just examples and are not exclusive.
 

185143

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I've had to travel twice on Metrolink without a ticket-the first time there had been a power failure at the stop I boarded, so all the machines were off. I was told to buy a single on the way back (I said I was getting the tram back, which I did).

The second time I only had a Scottish £5 note-which the machine didn't like (there's another problem with a system where TVM use is compulsory). I was given a reference number again-I found an inspector when I got off the tram (I wanted a travelcard) who swapped the note for an English one.
 

Qwerty133

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This is nothing new and has certainly been in the EMT conditions of carriage for at least 5 years, although at that point specifically said to speak to the train manager, of whom there was one aboard all services. IIRC it was suggested in a previous thread to have a forum meet at Spondon or Peartree for a mass of people to approach the guard to purchase a ticket.
 

LowLevel

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There can only ever be one guard on a train, however formed.

Not exactly. EMT where two or more train guards are rostered to work on a service have one booked as 'guard' and the others either 'pass' or 'guard assist' - they are just as likely to be delegated bits of the role of the guard in the rulebook, usually train dispatch, so the train guard can do the tickets and hoover up commission in the case of the local side.
 

jumble

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On the whole, these comments could be regarded as unhelpful and leave the general reader of this forum unclear as to how they should proceed if they find a Metrolink stop without a functioning TVM. Would you advise that general reader to obtain a reference number or not?

An educated guess would be that any discussion was along the lines of one of.

I had no Phone and why should I have to ?
I had no Phone Credit and why should I have to?
I don't understand why I should have to spend my money which you would refuse to refund if I asked for it to discuss your broken machine?
I phoned and no one answered


But I may be totally wrong

Regards Jumble
 

northwichcat

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I had no Phone and why should I have to ?
I had no Phone Credit and why should I have to?
I don't understand why I should have to spend my money which you would refuse to refund if I asked for it to discuss your broken machine?
I phoned and no one answered

Also while Metrolink is an urban network there could still be signal blackspots for certain mobile providers.
 

WelshBluebird

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It's not hard to look along a 4-car train from a central position on a quiet platform and see the guard. It's really not.

As for talking to him.

Guard addressing passengers as he steps out: "Anyone need a ticket"
3 passengers in near unison "Yeah, me"
Guard: "OK, get on and wait by the door and I'll sell you one in a minute"

I really do not see a problem.

So when it is a longer than 4 car train, or from a non central position, or from a busy platform?
 

BestWestern

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There can only ever be one guard on a train, however formed.

Multiple Guards will sometimes share the workload though, a travelling or assisting Guard perhaps undertaking dispatch at one or two stations while the booked Guard is occupied elsewhere. Isn't unusual.
 

Llanigraham

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Multiple Guards will sometimes share the workload though, a travelling or assisting Guard perhaps undertaking dispatch at one or two stations while the booked Guard is occupied elsewhere. Isn't unusual.

Happens on the Cambrian Coast in the summer quite often.
 
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