Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Bletchleyite]

Many Northern 'branch' services join a mainline before reaching a city. Would it also be ideal for them to run flat out for 5 minutes while an Intercity train passes on the adjacent track at 100mph?

Why wouldn't it?

FWIW the trains with the rattliest doors when being passed by something else are modern ones, not anything with classic sliding doors. The mid-2000s pre-Bombardier Electrostar - now there's a train with a serious build quality issue.

 

[Dstock7080]

Also in response to a comment made about their ride quality and that of them still using their ex LT Bogies - Had Metro-Cammel won the order from BR for the 1st Gen DMU replacement with their 151, We would perhaps be more used to those bogies by now as the prototype units had very similar bogies.

D Stock had replacement bogies from Bombardier fitted 2000-2002

 

[Chris125]

The small wheels produce flange squeal, vids of them on LU or NR track show that they do this.

Eh?

IIRC the wheel diameter - 788mm - is slightly larger than those under 100mph 172s and 125mph Voyagers and isn't significantly smaller than the 840mm for most BR-era DMUs.

Indeed a quick search suggests 150s are even closer at 800mm so I can't see why it would be an issue.

 

[1179_Clee2]

If anybody wants to read anything about 230's RAIL magazine has a 2 page spread on them by Richard Clinnick (RAIL 830 due out on Wednesday 5th July)

4 different sub headings

Vivarail Class 230 carries first main line passengers
Where could a D-Train operate
Battery 230 showcased at Rail Live
Electrification delay opens Thames Valley branches to D-Train opportunities

New info within text (RAIL text quoting A Shooter)
ALL new trains will be fitted with performance monitors to tell base about faults
ONLY 185 and Voyager DMUs accelerate faster than a 230, it beats everything else. The battery train is faster as it is lighter.
Prospective customers are interested in original LU interiors as capacity busting trains with 4 doors per vehicle retained for 30 second dwell times.
Vivarail have met with the London Borough of Hounslow, which is spearheading a programme to reintroduce passenger trains to the Southall to Brentford line in West London.

I will point people at articles on the 230 in the interest of fairness, but nothing will ever change my view on the trains.

 

[northwichcat]

ONLY 185 and Voyager DMUs accelerate faster than a 230, it beats everything else. The battery train is faster as it is lighter.

Under every situation e.g. 0-30 is faster, 40-60 is faster, faster when running ECS, faster when running with as many passengers as you can possibly cram on? The latter is where the Pacer really struggles.

 

[1179_Clee2]

Under every situation e.g. 0-30 is faster, 40-60 is faster, faster when running ECS, faster when running with as many passengers as you can possibly cram on? The latter is where the Pacer really struggles.

Full quote from RAIL

Acceleration of the 230 DEMU, Shooter told RAIL, was better than all diesel multiple units other than 185 or a Voyager DEMU. He said simulations on a Class 230 against a 150 or two car 165 Turbo showed it could complete journey times quicker due to better acceleration and without taking into account the added journey time improvements made possible by wider doors.

Looks like station to station times to me, any more info ask Mr A Shooter

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Controversial statement alert, I would rather have a load of these than tarted up 150s on short to mid distance low speed work. Great vid.

Same here, the 150's should all be reformed into three or even four car units and shoved onto the more busy lines along with reformed into three car class 156's and 158's. The seven remaining class 155's should be reformed into seven four car class 155's, the two "centre" units are obviously two class 153's that are permemently coupled together with the cabs taken out of use. (I say four car as these would be marooned onto the Harrogate's or the Calder Valley's)

These 230's can replace the Pacers, as its well and truly is like for like replacements. Then with whatever gap is left fill them with the class 195's / 331's.

It looks good to me.

 

[47802]

Same here, the 150's should all be reformed into three or even four car units and shoved onto the more busy lines along with reformed into three car class 156's and 158's. The seven remaining class 155's should be reformed into seven four car class 155's, the two "centre" units are obviously two class 153's that are permemently coupled together with the cabs taken out of use. (I say four car as these would be marooned onto the Harrogate's or the Calder Valley's)

These 230's can replace the Pacers, as its well and truly is like for like replacements. Then with whatever gap is left fill them with the class 195's / 331's.

It looks good to me.

Might look good to you but Arriva have a franchise agreement, and a plan for new trains and cascaded stock end off, and if Northern do end up with additional requirements it may well be 769's rather than 230's.

We have been around this many times before 230's do not feature in Northern's current plans, and unless for some reason that changes in the future I see no reason to discuss it further.

Some 150's are planned to be reformed into 3 car units, I'm not sure you would reform 150's into 4 car units when you can just couple 2 together, and Harrogate is planned to be 3 car 170's with double the current frequency between Leeds and Harrogate.

 

[43096]

Might look good to you but Arriva have a franchise agreement, and a plan for new trains and cascaded stock end off, and if Northern do end up with additional requirements it may well be 769's rather than 230's.



We have been around this many times before 230's do not feature in Northern's current plans, and unless for some reason that changes in the future I see no reason to discuss it further.

Please stop injecting reality into the thread!!!

You know it is standard for people to come up with lots of impractical ideas after a franchise contract has been signed!

 

[47802]

Please stop injecting reality into the thread!!!

You know it is standard for people to come up with lots of impractical ideas after a franchise contract has been signed!

Oh yes sorry I forgot that!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Full quote from RAIL

Acceleration of the 230 DEMU, Shooter told RAIL, was better than all diesel multiple units other than 185 or a Voyager DEMU. He said simulations on a Class 230 against a 150 or two car 165 Turbo showed it could complete journey times quicker due to better acceleration and without taking into account the added journey time improvements made possible by wider doors.

Looks like station to station times to me, any more info ask Mr A Shooter

Nothing like seeking impartial advice...:roll:

 

[jopsuk]

Approaching nearly three years of this thread.
Class 230 orders announced to date: 0

 

[DerekC]

If this question has been asked already then I apologise but there are 349 pages of it. If retractioning and remotoring the units (as is needed for the hybrid and battery versions) what would prevent the top speed being upped to 75 mph? Surely something Vivarail must have thought about. (I guess there are going to be two sets of answers - one relating to physics and practicality and one relating to standards.)

 

[northwichcat]

Full quote from RAIL

Acceleration of the 230 DEMU, Shooter told RAIL, was better than all diesel multiple units other than 185 or a Voyager DEMU. He said simulations on a Class 230 against a 150 or two car 165 Turbo showed it could complete journey times quicker due to better acceleration and without taking into account the added journey time improvements made possible by wider doors.

Looks like station to station times to me, any more info ask Mr A Shooter

To me that sounds like he's picked a few lines which he thinks the D-Train would be best suited for and then done a few computer simulations. I wonder if the specific mention of 150s and 165s means W&B and GWR are now his target markets.

 

[northwichcat]

Some 150's are planned to be reformed into 3 car units, I'm not sure you would reform 150's into 4 car units when you can just couple 2 together, and Harrogate is planned to be 3 car 170's with double the current frequency between Leeds and Harrogate.

The franchise agreement suggests 4 car 150s will be used on Oxford Road to Lime Street stoppers. I think there's going to be 18 x 3 car 150s - the franchise agreement indicates the Penistone and Knottingley routes will see the 3 car 150s but I imagine they'll be a couple of other routes as well.

 

[northwichcat]

These 230's can replace the Pacers, as its well and truly is like for like replacements.

Apart from there's very few (if any) routes which are exclusively Pacers. 150s can run to the same timings as Pacers but can D-Trains if they can accelerate faster but have a lower top speed?

One issue with D-Trains is they are non-standard length carriages so a 4 car D-Train will be shorter than a 4 car 150. Then what do you do if a 4 car D-Train is suitable but the platforms are long enough:
- lengthen them to D-Train lengths and then risk having to lengthen them again in a few years time?
- lengthen them to 4 car 150 length for future proofing even though there may not be any diesel trains with 20m carriages when the D-Trains get withdrawn?

 

[DerekC]

Apart from there's very few (if any) routes which are exclusively Pacers. 150s can run to the same timings as Pacers but can D-Trains if they can accelerate faster but have a lower top speed?

One issue with D-Trains is they are non-standard length carriages so a 4 car D-Train will be shorter than a 4 car 150. Then what do you do if a 4 car D-Train is suitable but the platforms are long enough:
- lengthen them to D-Train lengths and then risk having to lengthen them again in a few years time?
- lengthen them to 4 car 150 length for future proofing even though there may not be any diesel trains with 20m carriages when the D-Trains get withdrawn?

Fit the D-train with SDO, maybe?

 

[47802]

To me that sounds like he's picked a few lines which he thinks the D-Train would be best suited for and then done a few computer simulations. I wonder if the specific mention of 150s and 165s means W&B and GWR are now his target markets.

I think if GWR were seriously considering these trains we would have herd by now, possibly they looked at these trains for a number of branches with a view to avoiding the need for the HST Short Sets, but concluded otherwise. I guess they could work the relatively short Thames branches and have often been suggested for the Cornish branches, a bit of reverse North South divide on the Thames branches would good in my view, whether the sixty mile an hour trundle back to the depot on the mainline would be ideal remains to be seen even if allegedly more maintenance can be done on site.

I expect anything is a target market as far as Shooter is concerned given his Northern punt failed.

I'm still of the view that non of the Major Franchises will place a significant order for these trains but then what do I know!

 

[northwichcat]

Fit the D-train with SDO, maybe?

SDO isn't always a solution in itself depending where the signals and, crossover points are and that's also why extending platforms a few extra metres can be very expensive - as it might require changing other infrastructure.

 

[northwichcat]

I think if GWR were seriously considering these trains we would have herd by now, possibly they looked at these trains for a number of branches with a view to avoiding the need for the HST Short Sets, but concluded otherwise. I guess they could work the relatively short Thames branches and have often been suggested for the Cornish branches, a bit of reverse North South divide on the Thames branches would good in my view, whether the sixty mile an hour trundle back to the depot on the mainline would be ideal remains to be seen

DfT/the next franchise still have to resolve what will replace the Angel 150s which are remaining until the current franchise but are due to transfer to Northern in 2019 (which includes the 3 car 150/0s.)

 

[47802]

DfT/the next franchise still have to resolve what will replace the Angel 150s which are remaining until the current franchise but are due to transfer to Northern in 2019 (which includes the 3 car 150/0s.)

Well possibly but there could be a number 319 flex possibilities including Gatwick- Reading, through stoppers to Oxford instead of a shuttle to Didcot. etc

 

[Bantamzen]

These 230's can replace the Pacers, as its well and truly is like for like replacements. Then with whatever gap is left fill them with the class 195's / 331's.

It looks good to me.

It can feel a bit like Groundhog Day on this thread sometimes, sooner or later it gets back to the "Why can't Northern take them to replace the Pacers?". Well as already recently said, the Pacers are getting replaced but it isn't like for like. The 195s & 331s aren't stop-gaps, they are band new, higher specced trains many of which will be delivering higher quality services along existing and new routes. The 150/155/156/170s that they have and will receive will mainly be used to retire the 142/144s, although I wouldn't be suprised to see a handful of 144s retained either for short routes where the toilets are locked out, or if they retain some regular purpose have DDA conversions to bring them up to minimum spec.

I'm sure Arriva looked at the 230 option, and I'm sure that if they really thought that they were the answer to all their problems they would have tried hard to convince DfT. But they didn't, and now somewhere in Spain the CAF employees are either finishing off the designs or actually starting to build the first of Northern's new units. Shooter & VivaRail took a punt that the Northern franchise winner would be desperate for a cheap 'n' cheerful, they didn't. And it shouldn't be a surprise really, they are investing heavily in new bus stock across their networks to improve their image, so it seems logical to start to do the same with their new rail franchise.

Maybe the 230s will find a home elsewhere, maybe. Despite all of VivaRails bravado there still isn't a single firm order that any of us are aware of. And they have still to fully prove the viability of their single operational unit, and more importantly convince those in the industry that a re-tractioned, partly refurbished 35 year old unit can outperform younger or new stock.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm sure Arriva looked at the 230 option, and I'm sure that if they really thought that they were the answer to all their problems they would have tried hard to convince DfT. But they didn't, and now somewhere in Spain the CAF employees are either finishing off the designs or actually starting to build the first of Northern's new units. Shooter & VivaRail took a punt that the Northern franchise winner would be desperate for a cheap 'n' cheerful, they didn't. And it shouldn't be a surprise really, they are investing heavily in new bus stock across their networks to improve their image, so it seems logical to start to do the same with their new rail franchise.

I recall Tony Miles saying due to CAF being on the verge of closing a factory due to no orders Arriva were able to get an excellent deal on the Civities and that the 195s will only cost 'slightly more' than the revised Vivarail estimate for the converted and refurbished D-Trains. Vivarail were promising a cheap, quick to create solution and they've significantly revised both their cost and time estimates.

If the rumours are to be believed if the franchise had been awarded to Govia they would have done the bare minimum to meet the DfT/Rail North spec and if it had been awarded to Abellio they would have gone further than Arriva. However, even at the bare minimum spec it's debatable whether D-Trains would have meet the requirement - they aren't 15x, 17x, new build self-powered or unpowered carriages to be hauled by a loco and those were the only types of rolling stock bidders were allowed to include in their post-2019 plan for non-electrified routes.

 

[edwin_m]

At the time that bidders would have been making their decisions on what fleets to bid for Northern, the 230 was somewhere between non-existent and unproven (it arguably still is). Given the operational and financial downsides to the operator if their chosen fleet doesn't work reliably, it would have been a brave bidder who ordered 230s "off plan" for Northern.

 

[edwin_m]

If this question has been asked already then I apologise but there are 349 pages of it. If retractioning and remotoring the units (as is needed for the hybrid and battery versions) what would prevent the top speed being upped to 75 mph? Surely something Vivarail must have thought about. (I guess there are going to be two sets of answers - one relating to physics and practicality and one relating to standards.)

The bogies and running gear are only designed for 60mph, including the use of rubber pads as suspension instead of the airbags that tend to be universal on modern trains. We have yet to see for ourselves what the ride is like at 60mph on Network Rail track, but going faster would probably result in an intolerably rough ride and might damage the train.

The diesel 230s are being re-tractioned but the new electronics is driving the existing motors, which probably aren't designed to rotate faster for the train to run at a higher speed. It might be possible to change the gearing but that would reduce the acceleration at low speeds which is a claimed advantage of the 230 over other units. I wasn't aware that battery/hybrid versions would be getting new motors but if so that objection might disappear - a new AC motor could probably deliver a higher speed and similar acceleration at low speeds and not require any more space.

Finally if going faster the bodywork might be subjected to greater forces in the event of a collision, and could invalidate the assumptions on which their Safety Management System is based.

 

[Chris125]

If this question has been asked already then I apologise but there are 349 pages of it. If retractioning and remotoring the units (as is needed for the hybrid and battery versions) what would prevent the top speed being upped to 75 mph?

IIRC the bogies are limited to 60mph so that would seem the most fundamental constraint, and there's been no suggestion of replacement - indeed they are relatively new, having themselves replaced the D78s originals.

 

[Harpers Tate]

The primary reason Northern aren't going to be using these isn't anything benevolent by Arriva; it was very clear in the original Invitation To Tender that any bidder proposing to use anything beyond a very specific list of recycled train types (which did not include 230s), plus new trains, would be immediately disqualified from the tender process.

So they didn't bid in such a manner, and they don't therefore propose such trains. Not that the top speed in itself would have mattered in the slightest for much of Northern's network.

 

[MatthewRead]

Put them on the services between Paignton and Exeter that will please me

 

[jimm]

Appears another trip out on the Cotswold Line for 230001 is on the cards for Thursday.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K96321/2017/07/06/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K96322/2017/07/06/advanced

 

[Bantamzen]

The primary reason Northern aren't going to be using these isn't anything benevolent by Arriva; it was very clear in the original Invitation To Tender that any bidder proposing to use anything beyond a very specific list of recycled train types (which did not include 230s), plus new trains, would be immediately disqualified from the tender process.

So they didn't bid in such a manner, and they don't therefore propose such trains. Not that the top speed in itself would have mattered in the slightest for much of Northern's network.

I'm pretty certain that if they had been considered a viable solution, Arriva or whomever else would have found a way to convince DfT let get them in. The ITT may have specified that they must be ruled out, but if all the bidders had included them regardless do you think the DfT would have stood its ground? Nah, 30 years in public service and exposure to contracting tells me that the private sector is always better at getting its way than ministers and civil servants.