EMT: "Your responsibility to approach the TM or Senior Conductor"

[Sprinter153]

There was a thread a while ago about ATW having a stated policy of passengers being required to find the Conductor to purchase a ticket if they boarded at a station where there are no ticket buying facilities. It looks like EMT have now adopted the same policy, as seen at East Midlands Parkway (EMD) yesterday:

Ticket information
If you're getting on at a station that has a ticket office or ticket machine or a Permit to Travel machine, you must buy your ticket before you get on the train. If there are no ticket facilities at the station, you can buy a range of tickets on board from the Train Manager or Senior Conductor. It's your responsibility to approach them as soon as you can when you get on the train.

It's a shame to see this as I didn't have them down as a shoddy outfit when it comes to revenue. We don't see a lot of their cases on the Disputes and Prosecutions section here, for example (if that's representative of a progressive approach to revenue protection, I don't know).

It's an unfriendly policy because the provision of a TM or Senior Conductor on the train is no guarantee of their customer-facing presence within the train. Admittedly EMT leads the way on this - particularly on local services where Senior Conductors are very attentive in the main - but I hope we don't end up going down the slippery slope of excusing the lack of on-train presence of a minority of members of staff by punishing passengers for not wandering up and down to find them. Indeed the red information box under NRCoT 6.3 states that you should purchase from the Guard if there is one available - availability and presence are two different things.

 

[Merseysider]

So we're supposed to approach the TM, but we're also not supposed to leave 'any items of luggage unattended'?

Not sure how that's gonna work in rush hour

There's no requirement in the National Rail Conditions of Travel for passengers to approach them. The responsibility for selling tickets for unstaffed stations lies with staff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it that hard to locate the guard on the platform and board at his/her door, telling him/her that a ticket is required? That's how it used to work on DB's rural DOO routes - the driver wouldn't sell you a ticket, he'd just note that you needed one to tell inspectors if they boarded, otherwise you got a free trip or paid at the interchange.

If you then sit down and are caught, PF time.

OTOH I favour having Paytrain routes on which on board payment is always allowed whether a ticket office/TVM is present or not. On other routes, the above would apply. On DOO services, perhaps a more Metrolink like requirement to telephone for a reference number before boarding.

 

[rdwarr]

Is it that hard to locate the guard on the platform and board at his/her door, telling him/her that a ticket is required? That's how it used to work on DB's rural DOO routes - the driver wouldn't sell you a ticket, he'd just note that you needed one to tell inspectors if they boarded, otherwise you got a free trip or paid at the interchange.

If you then sit down and are caught, PF time.

That would mean everybody from a station with no ticket-selling facilities getting on at the same door. I can see that going down well in rush-hour.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are all their guards commercial guards? If they aren't they really need to be for this to work

 

[cjmillsnun]

Are all their guards commercial guards? If they aren't they really need to be for this to work

I believe they are on EMT.

 

[Sprinter153]

Is it that hard to locate the guard on the platform and board at his/her door, telling him/her that a ticket is required?

On a 153, or perhaps a single 156 or 158, fine.

On an HST or one of the plethora of Meridian formations, less so. I have a working knowledge of the railway and it can be a guessing game for me. Most of the time on a single Meridian they're at the staff only door at the First Class end, but they might be checking tickets, or dealing with something else.

A double Meridian is worse because there may or may not be one guard per set and again where they are could vary. An HST is pot luck depending on individual taste and dispatch instructions. I don't see lay passengers studying the minutae of dispatch arrangements to find the guard on an 8 or 10 coach train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would mean everybody from a station with no ticket-selling facilities getting on at the same door. I can see that going down well in rush-hour.

No "station with no ticketing facilities" should have so many boarding that that is an issue.

If there are, it needs at least two TVMs installing. Yes, Northern, that means you; the entire Liverpool and Manchester urban networks need at least two TVMs per station and PFs throughout. The present situation is a joke.

 

[northwichcat]

Is it that hard to locate the guard on the platform and board at his/her door, telling him/her that a ticket is required? That's how it used to work on DB's rural DOO routes - the driver wouldn't sell you a ticket, he'd just note that you needed one to tell inspectors if they boarded, otherwise you got a free trip or paid at the interchange.

Widnes ticket office opening hours:
Monday - Friday 07:00 - 14:25
Saturday 07:00 - 14:25
Sunday Closed

So outside of those hours do all passengers who don't already have a ticket need to proceed to the door the guard releases the doors from and all individually tell him/her they need a ticket? Will EMT increase the dwell time at Widnes to allow that without delaying the train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

On a 153, or perhaps a single 156 or 158, fine.

On an HST or one of the plethora of Meridian formations, less so. I have a working knowledge of the railway and it can be a guessing game for me. Most of the time on a single Meridian they're at the staff only door at the First Class end, but they might be checking tickets, or dealing with something else.

A double Meridian is worse because there may or may not be one guard per set and again where they are could vary. An HST is pot luck depending on individual taste and dispatch instructions. I don't see lay passengers studying the minutae of dispatch arrangements to find the guard on an 8 or 10 coach train.

How many stations with no ticketing facilities on EMT's network are served by such trains?

Why do those stations not have at least one TVM?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Widnes ticket office opening hours:
Monday - Friday 07:00 - 14:25
Saturday 07:00 - 14:25
Sunday Closed

So outside of those hours do all passengers who don't already have a ticket need to proceed to the door the guard releases the doors from and all individually tell him/her they need a ticket?

Yes.

Will EMT increase the dwell time at Widnes to allow that without delaying the train?

The station is hardly busy with non-ticket-holders outside those times. Those hours are like that for a reason - the vast majority of passengers are travelling into the cities in the morning peak and returning in the evening. If it is, a TVM is needed.

 

[northwichcat]

If there are, it needs at least two TVMs installing. Yes, Northern, that means you; the entire Liverpool and Manchester urban networks need at least two TVMs per station and PFs throughout. The present situation is a joke.

I'd say it needs to go further than that. At Knutsford there's one TVM on the Manchester bound platform, adjacent to the ticket office. Apart from the fact the reliability of the TVM is poor it means anyone arriving the Chester side and wanting to catch a Chester bound train has to cross the line - either by the footbridge or a 5 minute step free route which involves a steep incline. Considering annual usage is over 500,000 I say ideally they need 2 TVMs per platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd say it needs to go further than that. At Knutsford there's one TVM on the Manchester bound platform, adjacent to the ticket office. Apart from the fact the reliability of the TVM is poor it means anyone arriving the Chester side and wanting to catch a Chester bound train has to cross the line - either by the footbridge or a 5 minute step free route which involves a steep incline. Considering annual usage is over 500,000 I say ideally they need 2 TVMs per platform.

I don't know the station layout, but at least one per platform if there are two entrances. If only one, two at that location will do.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could they tweaked the guards panels and hazard lights so that the hazard light flashes on the coach where the guard is keyed in?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could they tweaked the guards panels and hazard lights so that the hazard light flashes on the coach where the guard is keyed in?

Interestingly that is already the case on LM 350s.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Interestingly that is already the case on LM 350s.

It's the same on all Desiro UK stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's the same on all Desiro UK stock.

The /2s, /3s and probably /4s also have another feature, a long flashing of the hazard lights when the close button has been pressed.

 

[northwichcat]

The station is hardly busy with non-ticket-holders outside those times. Those hours are like that for a reason - the vast majority of passengers are travelling into the cities in the morning peak and returning in the evening. If it is, a TVM is needed.

As far as I'm aware EMT guards don't always appear through the same set of doors. EMT use 4 car 158s and have only allocated half a minute between arrival and departure at Widnes. Passengers not boarding at the closest door and talking to the guard before boarding could mean the train is stopped for more than double the amount of time it is timetabled to be stopped for, even if there's only a couple of passengers needing a ticket.

 

[6Gman]

How many stations with no ticketing facilities on EMT's network are served by such trains?

Why do those stations not have at least one TVM?

Not all passengers can use TVMs (for a variety of reasons).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not all passengers can use TVMs (for a variety of reasons).

Most can, leaving only a few needing to see the guard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As far as I'm aware EMT guards don't always appear through the same set of doors. EMT use 4 car 158s and have only allocated half a minute between arrival and departure at Widnes. Passengers not boarding at the closest door and talking to the guard before boarding could mean the train is stopped for more than double the amount of time it is timetabled to be stopped for, even if there's only a couple of passengers needing a ticket.

It's not hard to look along a 4-car train from a central position on a quiet platform and see the guard. It's really not.

As for talking to him.

Guard addressing passengers as he steps out: "Anyone need a ticket"
3 passengers in near unison "Yeah, me"
Guard: "OK, get on and wait by the door and I'll sell you one in a minute"

I really do not see a problem.

 

[cactustwirly]

When I've caught trains from Knottingley (no ticketing facilities whatsoever) the guards won't sell tickets if you approach them on the platform, they want you to wait for them to come to you en route.
If the guard doesn't walk through the train the you have to queue up at the excess fares window at Leeds. Sometimes I've waited for over 1/2 hour because the queue's been very long.

It's a joke, they should provide a TVM at every station (ones with a regular service at least!).

In the Thames Valley I've had a few free rides from Wargrave, because the RPI hasn't showed up. It's technically in a PF area, though there isn't anyone else to seek for a ticket (it's DOO)

 

[Greenback]

It's not hard to look along a 4-car train from a central position on a quiet platform and see the guard. It's really not.

As for talking to him.

Guard addressing passengers as he steps out: "Anyone need a ticket"
3 passengers in near unison "Yeah, me"
Guard: "OK, get on and wait by the door and I'll sell you one in a minute"

I really do not see a problem.

If it was a requirement under the NCoT, then that is what everyone would have to do. As it isn't, no matter what EMT says, no one has to do it.

That's the real problem.

 

[6Gman]

I board a well-filled EMT service at an unstaffed station with my child or elderly parent.

There are a pair of empty seats for us to occupy.

Do I sit in them? Or do I go looking for the Guard to pay our fares and risk losing the seats?

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know the station layout, but at least one per platform if there are two entrances. If only one, two at that location will do.

There's actually 4 entrances in total - one to Manchester platform via ticket office, one direct to Manchester platform (locked when ticket office is open), one to Chester platform from car park (level entrance) and one to Chester platform from main road (via steps.)

 

[Sprinter153]

How many stations with no ticketing facilities on EMT's network are served by such trains?

Why do those stations not have at least one TVM?

Not many, and admittedly obscure ones. Lowdham springs immediately to mind. But TVMs break / have payment method restrictions / can't sell all tickets and ticket offices in many cases have limited hours or are unavailable if dispatch is required. TOCs need to either a) up their game substantially in terms of ticket facilities or b) recognise the issues for passengers and be flexible, not punitive. TOCs having cake and stuffing their faces with it is the reason the rail industry is unpopular.

As a member of staff I'd like to see that change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a joke, they should provide a TVM at every station (ones with a regular service at least!).

In the Thames Valley I've had a few free rides from Wargrave, because the RPI hasn't showed up. It's technically in a PF area, though there isn't anyone else to seek for a ticket (it's DOO)

I'd say nationally there should be 3 options. Any given option must apply to the entire run of a given timetabled train service and be shown in the timetable clearly.

1. Paytrain. Payment on board always acceptable (unless a barrier physically prevents it). Take a seat and pay the guard when he comes through. If he doesn't, legitimate free journey unless you meet a barrier in which case the appropriate fare is due. Guards to carry vouchers as above to issue if for any reason they can't sell tickets to back up this point. TVMs and ticket offices may be provided for passenger convenience but are not mandatory to use. This would typically be rural branch lines only.

2. Penalty Fares with Guard. Payment at station, TVMs MUST be provided at any station served by a train in this category. If you can't, you must identify yourself to the Guard on the platform before boarding. Guards to carry vouchers as above. This would be most IC and regional express services.

3. Penalty Fares on DOO services. Absolute compulsory ticketing, i.e. anyone boarding without a ticket is automatically subject to a PF with no excuse acceptable whatsoever. All stations on these services must have at least two TVMs with both card and cash acceptance. In the event of failure or need for a ticket the TVM can't do, the passenger must telephone for a reference number as per Metrolink. This would be city commuter type services.

Each of these would be marked with the appropriate symbol (like the Swiss Selbstkontrolle eye, perhaps) on the timetables, the PIS, at stations, on the train itself etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TOCs having cake and stuffing their faces with it is the reason the rail industry is unpopular.

Agreed. Northern appear to be the biggest problem in this regard, made easier for them by RoRA and the Byelaws. It's one reason I would like to decriminalise ticketless travel to bring it into line with ticketless parking (coupled with an increased PF). ScotRail seem to manage with much less scope to use these laws.

 

[clagmonster]

Not many, and admittedly obscure ones. Lowdham springs immediately to mind. But TVMs break / have payment method restrictions / can't sell all tickets and ticket offices in many cases have limited hours or are unavailable if dispatch is required. TOCs need to either a) up their game substantially in terms of ticket facilities or b) recognise the issues for passengers and be flexible, not punitive. TOCs having cake and stuffing their faces with it is the reason the rail industry is unpopular.

I think Langley Mill is unstaffed with no TVM. Do HSTs call at Alfreton outside of booking office opening hours? I seem to think the booking office closes relatively early so the evening St. Pancras - Leeds trains will fit the bill.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think Langley Mill is unstaffed with no TVM. Do HSTs call at Alfreton outside of booking office opening hours? I seem to think the booking office closes relatively early so the evening St. Pancras - Leeds trains will fit the bill.

Time to install a couple of TVMs, then.

Cake. Eat.