Night Overground

[telstarbox]

According to City AM and other outlets, there will be a 24-hour weekend service on the East London Line (Dalston Junction <> New Cross Gate) from December, and also to Highbury & Islington next year.

http://www.cityam.com/267703/get-ready-hipsters-night-tube-coming-overground

It may have taken a loooong time to get here but now the Night Tube is up and running like a... well, like a train.

Nearly a year since its launch, the 24-hour night service is being rolled out to the Overground line at weekends, starting with the branch between New Cross Gate and Dalston, and it's happening just in time for Christmas.

This will then be extended to the Highbury and Islington branch next year.

More than 6.5m journeys have beenmade on the Night Tube since its launch. There's no data on how drunk the passengers were, but apparently they spent a lot, boosting London's night-time economy by £77m and supporting a furhter 2,000 jobs.

But the extension is not all about serving night owls and hipsters. The mayor's office said the new servicewould "help those working shifts in East London’s thriving hospitality and service sectors, and those who live in the outer London zones, by substantially reducing their journey times. It will also be hugely beneficial for other night shift workers going to and from work, including those in the emergency services".

Mayor Sadiq Khan said: “Our Night Tube services have been a real success right across the capital, so I’m delighted to announce that we’ll be bringing the Night Overground to the East London line later this year. It will provide huge benefits to Londoners and visitors to our city, helping those working hard through the night and all those out enjoying everything London has to offer, as well as creating jobs and boosting our economy.”

Henry Dimbleby, co-founder of Leon and London Union, added: "The orange line is the artery that connects London's most vibrant areas. The opening of the night service will not just boost the local economy, it will further feed the creative spirit of east London, the culture epicentre of Europe. It's going to be awesome."

Due to Crossrail work taking place at Whitechapel station, London Overground night services will initially not call at the station until works are complete. Services are expected to call at the station from summer 2018.

All stations along the route will be staffed at all times while trains are running, with CCTV, modern lighting and help points throughout.

In the future, the Night Tube will be extended to parts of the Metropolitan, Circle, District, and Hammersmith & City lines once modernisation programmes are complete in 2023.

 

[Clip]

Seems a bit if a fudge for them not to open it down to West Croydon

 

[swt_passenger]

Seems a bit if a fudge for them not to open it down to West Croydon

Network Rail presumably won't allow it, they'll need the maintenance time. TfL are the infrastructure owner for the bit that will be used, and must believe they can do their maintenance on five nights a week - not unreasonable on a practically brand new railway.

 

[Clip]

Network Rail presumably won't allow it, they'll need the maintenance time. TfL are the infrastructure owner for the bit that will be used, and must believe they can do their maintenance on five nights a week - not unreasonable on a practically brand new railway.

I am well aware of that and whilst the TL services still run but via a different route till Norwood then im sure it would be possible. Unless NR do work every night between New cross gate and norwood - I am unsure

 

[Lrd]

There was a recruitment drive for drivers earlier in the year, rumoured to be so they can run a 24 hour service from December.

What swt_passenger said above about it only being on TfL infrastructure makes sense as well.

 

[Mojo]

The Night services map on display at Shoreditch High Street says the service between Dalston Junction and Highbury/Islington is coming January 2018.

https://twitter.com/martinhoscik/status/881792533474533377

 

[Skoodle]

Week beginning 10th December is when it's "supposed" to be introduced between Dalston and New Cross Gate. Highbury will start next year. I'm guessing that's due to Dalston Western Curve to Highbury being Network Rail infrastructure and they won't have procured the paths in time.

I do believe this was announced prematurely. After what happened with the Night Tube introduction and delay, waiting until everything was in place would have made sense. It's not.

 

[Joe Paxton]

This is great news and I'm in no doubt the overnight trains on the ELL will be very well patronised.

One thing that's a bit lacking at the moment is night buses heading south from New Cross Gate to destinations near stations on the southern end of the ELL service - there is the N171 which passes by Brockley, then onto Brockley Rise - the north end of which is just down from Honor Oak Park station and the south end which is about half a mile from Forest Hill. However then the bus heads east to Catford. Perhaps something might be added.

 

[telstarbox]

Maybe they could extend the 75 which currently terminates at Lewisham.

 

[NeilWatson]

Time for a rebrand, uniting all appropriate services under, say, a 'London Night Rail' brand?

 

[mrmartin]

Shame it isn't happening on the NLL - lots of stuff going on there and absolutely dreadful connectivity without night tube. The last trains on the NLL are rammed too, even an extension to 1-2am would be super helpful.

 

[TheNewNo2]

There aren't enough train operators to cover standard service on the Piccadilly Line but the East London Line gets more for night service.

 

[Antman]

I am well aware of that and whilst the TL services still run but via a different route till Norwood then im sure it would be possible. Unless NR do work every night between New cross gate and norwood - I am unsure

I would think it unlikely that NR do work every night? And there are four tracks so worst case scenario trains run fast between New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction if the slow lines are out with RRS for intermediate stations? Surely there would be plenty of demand for a Friday and Saturday night service to West Croydon?

 

[Lrd]

There aren't enough train operators to cover standard service on the Piccadilly Line but the East London Line gets more for night service.

Completely different. Piccadilly Line is run by London Underground. London Overground is run by Arrival for TfL. Besides, LU are currently recruiting 150 night tube drivers.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Shame it isn't happening on the NLL - lots of stuff going on there and absolutely dreadful connectivity without night tube. The last trains on the NLL are rammed too, even an extension to 1-2am would be super helpful.

How much freight runs over the route during the night at weekends? That might have an impact on the ability to run later trains.

 

[Bald Rick]

How much freight runs over the route during the night at weekends? That might have an impact on the ability to run later trains.

The NLL is chock full of freight overnight in the week, which means Sat/Sun and Sun/Mon are the only nights free for maintenance. And those few hours each week are used intensively.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would think it unlikely that NR do work every night? And there are four tracks so worst case scenario trains run fast between New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction if the slow lines are out with RRS for intermediate stations? Surely there would be plenty of demand for a Friday and Saturday night service to West Croydon?

Not every night, but sufficiently often to make any timetable irrelevant.

 

[Antman]

Not every night, but sufficiently often to make any timetable irrelevant.

So how does the 24 hour Thameslink service manage?

 

[JonathanH]

So how does the 24 hour Thameslink service manage?

It can take one of three routes between Blackfriars and East Croydon leaving the other two for maintenance.

The problem with the Overground south of New Cross Gate is that it can only run on the slow lines south of there.

 

[Bald Rick]

So how does the 24 hour Thameslink service manage?

It doesn't stop (for passengers) between Blackfriars and E Croydon, and has the option of three different routes to get there (4 from January), and uses them all regularly.

The whole purpose of London Overground is a metro railway, there would be little point in running non stop from New Cross Gate to West Croydon. In any event it would not be possible on the nights where the slow lines are shut, as there isn't the pointwork between New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction to get round them.

 

[Busaholic]

Maybe they could extend the 75 which currently terminates at Lewisham.

The 75 had its all-night service terminated in 2009, at a time when expansion of night services was all the rage, so it can't have been very successful. A new N197 would be my suggestion, deviating northbound at Forest Hill from the 197 and going direct to New Cross Gate via the 122, then 171 route.

 

[mrmartin]

The NLL is chock full of freight overnight in the week, which means Sat/Sun and Sun/Mon are the only nights free for maintenance. And those few hours each week are used intensively.

There are 3 trains per direction I can see booked on the NLL between midnight at 4am tonight (and same on any other weeknight). Hardly 'chock full of freight' or 'used intensively'. There are no fright movements on the weekend.

 

[CheeseOnToast]

Most routes have a period where no trains are booked to run, this is Section 4 of the Engineering Access Statement and there should be no WTT trains planned over the line during these times. The whole purpose of Section 4 is it's a possession opportunity, if maintenance / engineers want to go in and do something they can and it's non-disruptive to passenger / freight flows, no negotiation with operators is needed to go in and do some work. Some are used for track patrolling and sometimes for routine maintenance. Where maintenance access is heavily restricted to the network such as on the NLL then it tends to get used, other lines may have plenty of access and light traffic and thus access isn't taken at every opportunity as it's easy to get.

There may only be three paths an hour in each direction but I suspect there's many more that are not used daily, there will also be spare capacity for it to be used as a diversionary route when other lines are closed.

Thameslink has a Section 4 block for a few hours on a Sunday morning through the Core. There is also running over just one line in the Core for a few hours each night, the timetable is planned for this, whether one line is taken each night is a different matter but the opportunity is there should they wish.

 

[Sunset route]

I would think it unlikely that NR do work every night? And there are four tracks so worst case scenario trains run fast between New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction if the slow lines are out with RRS for intermediate stations? Surely there would be plenty of demand for a Friday and Saturday night service to West Croydon?

What people don't appreciate is the vast amount of Line Blockages that take place over night compared with the preplanned and sometimes emergency engineers total possession of the line I.E. T3s.

You won't find Line Blockages listed in any train companies list of up and coming engineering work which only exclusively show T3 possessions. But most maintenance is done under Line Blockages with renewals and the use of on track machines/trains and on track plant requiring a T3 Possession.

 

[Antman]

There are 3 trains per direction I can see booked on the NLL between midnight at 4am tonight (and same on any other weeknight). Hardly 'chock full of freight' or 'used intensively'. There are no fright movements on the weekend.

You wouldn't think running LO trains 2 nights out of 7 was beyond the realms of possibility, likewise south of New Cross Gate.

 

[Clip]

It doesn't stop (for passengers) between Blackfriars and E Croydon, and has the option of three different routes to get there (4 from January), and uses them all regularly.

The whole purpose of London Overground is a metro railway, there would be little point in running non stop from New Cross Gate to West Croydon. In any event it would not be possible on the nights where the slow lines are shut, as there isn't the pointwork between New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction to get round them.

Youd no more about this then me hence me asking but couldnt they just not bother with any work on the slows on a friday/saturday night to provide the service and do it all through the week?

 

[mrmartin]

You wouldn't think running LO trains 2 nights out of 7 was beyond the realms of possibility, likewise south of New Cross Gate.

yes, I'm not even saying all night - just a slightly later service until 2am would be more than helpful. If there is engineering, cancel the service and tell people them to use nightbuses (no worse than the current situation).

Apparently most of these freight paths aren't even actually used!

 

[LLivery]

Maybe they could extend the 75 which currently terminates at Lewisham.

The 75 isn't 24 hour, even though everyone seems to think it is. I wish it was, would be perfect for me.

 

[LLivery]

The 75 had its all-night service terminated in 2009, at a time when expansion of night services was all the rage, so it can't have been very successful. A new N197 would be my suggestion, deviating northbound at Forest Hill from the 197 and going direct to New Cross Gate via the 122, then 171 route.

Was it only 2009? It does seem silly, seeing the last service is 2am and is reasonably used. Its a quick fix just to run the extra 3 hours and extend to NXG.

 

[LLivery]

The thing is, they manage 24 hours, 6 days a week on the Midland, Thameslink core and Brighton ML. 24 hours, just 2 days a week shouldn't be impossible on the Sydenham Corridor. I just can't see how NR couldn't cope with 2 out of 7 days being 24 hour, especially when more than 2 days a week, the overnight Thameslink used the Sydenham Corridor before the London Bridge works and will do so again.