My idea for the SWT stock that is getting withdrawn [fantasy warning]

[swt class 450]

Hi all. I have just been having a think about all the SWT stock which First will be withdrawing soon. Basically if i was them this is what i would do with all of the units:

• Convert all of the AGA / FTPE / HC / LM 350s and 360s in to 450s (by adding third rail and end corridor connections where necessary) and send them all to SWT. This when mean that SWT would have a fleet of 240 (instead of 127 currently) four coach class 450 EMUs. This would also mean that they would no longer need to use the 442s and could use extra 450s instead. This would also allow SWT to run far more 12 coach trains. The new LM franchise (which hopefully wont be Govia) could then order a brand new fleet of trains (which will probably happen anyway).

• Send all of the 707s to GTR but convert​ them to four coaches and use them on coastway services to replace all of the 313s. Then use the removed coaches to help extend all of the 8 coach 700s to 12 coaches (in addition to ordering some more coaches as well as this wont be quite enough). TL is very overcrowded and the eight coach trains are simply not enough.

• Send all of the 458s to Abellio Scotrail and merge them with the 334s to create four coach units (a sort of similar project to the 458 and 460 conversions).

• Send all of the 455s and 456s to GTR Southern to allow them to run 12 coach trains across the Metro network. A few platform extensions or adding SDO would be necessary but this is very simple to do.

As we all know common sense doesn't exist in the UK railway industry so i imagine the DFT and the TOCs will probably come up with some silly ideas instead for these trains.

But i am just interested what others think of this? Is there a chance that any of this might happen? Does anyone think these would be good idea for them? If not what what would you suggest should happen with them?

Many thanks.

 

[CosherB]

Hi all. I have just been having a think about all the SWT stock which First will be withdrawing soon. Basically if i was them this is what i would do with all of the units:

• Convert all of the AGA / FTPE / HC / LM 350s and 360s in to 450s (by adding third rail and end corridor connections where necessary) and send them all to SWT. This when mean that SWT would have a fleet of 240 (instead of 127 currently) four coach class 450 EMUs. This would also mean that they would no longer need to use the 442s and could use extra 450s instead. This would also allow SWT to run far more 12 coach trains. The new LM franchise (which hopefully wont be Govia) could then order a brand new fleet of trains (which will probably happen anyway).

• Send all of the 707s to GTR but convert​ them to four coaches and use them on coastway services to replace all of the 313s. Then use the removed coaches to help extend all of the 8 coach 700s to 12 coaches (in addition to ordering some more coaches as well as this wont be quite enough). TL is very overcrowded and the eight coach trains are simply not enough.

• Send all of the 458s to Abellio Scotrail and merge them with the 334s to create four coach units (a sort of similar project to the 458 and 460 conversions).

• Send all of the 455s and 456s to GTR Southern to allow them to run 12 coach trains across the Metro network. A few platform extensions or adding SDO would be necessary but this is very simple to do.

As we all know common sense doesn't exist in the UK railway industry so i imagine the DFT and the TOCs will probably come up with some silly ideas instead for these trains.

But i am just interested what others think of this? Is there a chance that any of this might happen? Does anyone think these would be good idea for them? If not what what would you suggest should happen with them?

Many thanks.

I'll be kind - that all sounds very "optimistic".

 

[class387]

A few issues:

- Isn't the point of the 442s to give intercity stock back to the Portsmouth commuters? In which case more unpopular suburban Desiros are a bad idea. I've explained other problems about this in another thread.

- Southern Coastway is designed around 3 and 6 car units, hence why the 313s have not already been replaced with 319s, other Electrostars etc.

- The 8 car 700s are that long as they will be used for stopping services where the platforms can't take 12 cars. Some stations, such as Foxton, already have problems taking 8 coach trains.

- Can 455s even operate in 12 car formations?

 

[F Great Eastern]

That Desiro idea is never going to work for so many reasons

 

[3141]

That Desiro idea is never going to work for so many reasons

Two of which are

1) First/MTR have just signed a contract with DfT to run the franchise based on what they put in their bid. They won the competition and Stagecoach did not. In the most unlikely event of the DfT agreeing to such a major change, Stagecoach would justifiably say that that invalidates the whole franchise bidding process and it should all start again.

2) First/MTR and a ROSCO have just signed contracts for an order of Aventras to be placed with Bombardier which First/MTR will lease. There would be penalty payments if they withdrew.

I think the second sentence of your opening post should have been

"Basically if i was them this is what i would have done with all of the units". Perhaps we need a "fantasy rolling stock" forum where alternative realities can be developed.

 

[bb21]

Adding SDO is not very simple to do and definitely not cheap. Why would you add that to 455/456s which will probably be life expired/close to end of shelf life when your proposal is implemented?

Many stations on Southern metro routes do not have space for any further platform extension and some struggle with accommodating even 8-car trains.

Following the recent refurb, I don't think it will be ecomonical to convert 458s to AC units, if at all possible.

With all these supposed 450s you are proposing, what happens with all the new stock FirstMTR have ordered, even if it is possible with such conversions at reasonable rates?

 

[43096]

A few issues:

- Isn't the point of the 442s to give intercity stock back to the Portsmouth commuters? In which case more unpopular suburban Desiros are a bad idea. I've explained other problems about this in another thread.

- Southern Coastway is designed around 3 and 6 car units, hence why the 313s have not already been replaced with 319s, other Electrostars etc.

- The 8 car 700s are that long as they will be used for stopping services where the platforms can't take 12 cars. Some stations, such as Foxton, already have problems taking 8 coach trains.

- Can 455s even operate in 12 car formations?

I shouldn't bother using logic with him. Anyone dumb enough to waste time typing out nonsense like the OP has isn't going to be bothered about any facts you might point out!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Hi all. I have just been having a think about all the SWT stock which First will be withdrawing soon. Basically if i was them this is what i would do with all of the units:

• Convert all of the AGA / FTPE / HC / LM 350s and 360s in to 450s (by adding third rail and end corridor connections where necessary) and send them all to SWT. This when mean that SWT would have a fleet of 240 (instead of 127 currently) four coach class 450 EMUs. This would also mean that they would no longer need to use the 442s and could use extra 450s instead. This would also allow SWT to run far more 12 coach trains. The new LM franchise (which hopefully wont be Govia) could then order a brand new fleet of trains (which will probably happen anyway).

How can you say they should get more 450s! . They're horrible!

 

[swt class 450]

To clarify i am not suggesting that SWT get rid of the new Bombardier Aventra stock. I believe these should be kept as well.

Under my idea SWT would have the following:

10 x Class 158 (two coach each)
30 x Class 159 (three coach each)
45 x Class 444 (five coach each)
240 x Class 450 (four coach each)
90 x new Bombardier Aventra trains

This would mean that First SWT could run much longer trains. It would enable them to run a huge amount of 12 coach trains which would really help overcrowding in the peak times.

 

[MatthewRead]

I've heard the 442's may end up back on the Weymouth line with 44's taking over the Portsmouth line which I'd like

 

[bb21]

This would mean that First SWT could run much longer trains. It would enable them to run a huge amount of 12 coach trains which would really help overcrowding in the peak times.

Where are you going to run all these 12-car trains, bear in mind that many are already 12-car in the peak, especially in the high peak. You are adding 113 new 450s alone, on top of the existing ones. There is no more path into/out of Waterloo so you can't simply run more trains.

There is no room to accommodate an extra 113 units. Do you have any idea how much room an extra 452 carriages take?

Even saying scrap the new trains would give your proposals more credibility.

 

[gsnedders]

• Send all of the 458s to Abellio Scotrail and merge them with the 334s to create four coach units (a sort of similar project to the 458 and 460 conversions).

The 334s mostly work on lines which don't have space for more than 6x20m, so by converting them into four coach units you've just lost the ability to run the longest trains the infrastructure can take. Reforming them into three (as the 334s are) or six car units would make more sense. And they're limited to 75mph, which is unreasonably slow, especially on the Airdrie to Bathgate line.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've heard the 442's may end up back on the Weymouth line with 44's taking over the Portsmouth line which I'd like

Heard? Or making up your own ideas?

First have clearly announced that the 442s are for Portsmouth services.

 

[Clansman]

• Send all of the 458s to Abellio Scotrail and merge them with the 334s to create four coach units (a sort of similar project to the 458 and 460 conversions).

You're not recognising the compatibility issues with the two fleets, and the ludicrous costs involved.

If you were basing it solely on assuming the two can be economically integrated, then I can see the principle idea of some sort of integration with Scotrail, which isn't as bad (in comparison to the other proposals!), in response to 43096. Although I can't really say much about the other ideas other than what already been highlighted by others. Sadly, the railway doesn't deal in the uneconomical when it comes to rolling stock programmes of the scale to which you are proposing. That obvious fact aside, for what it's worth, I'll explore the idea as after all on a numbers basis, seeing as the OP has invited us to critique his ideas.

In terms of the concept you highlighted, it's unlikely that Scotrail would ever bother to do this would ever convert the 334s into 4 car units as most platforms along the operated routes can only take 6, thus reduces seating capacity by a significant amount on already doubled up services. Platform extensions would be costly and factor that into the conversion with every 334 and the works required to turn the 458s into overhead wire EMUs, the cost required to integrate both trains into a common fleet of 1 (if you really want to go down the 485/5 conversion) driver training, time out of service. Honestly, in the current climate, it'd be far cheaper for Scotrail to just bite the bullet and order a brand new fleet of trains that will replace the BREL EMUs for 30 years, rather than splashing the same amount of money on a mash-up conversion of 3 trains into 1, that'll last 10-15 years at best.

However, 6 car Class 334 units comprising of incorporating intermediate coaches of the 458s into them would be the only option in any realistic integration. Logically this would be the coaches from the original 458 batch, as they are near identical to the central coach in each 334 - with the doors swapped over with the Ex 460 ones for aesthetic reasons.

This maintains the fleet as one (and not a significant rebuild of trains) and leaves the Class 334 fleet with an even divide of:
20 x 6 car
20 x 3 car

Given most Class 334 operated services for Scotrail comprise of 6 coaches, a merge of this type would be the equivalent of 20 extra Class 334s - in other words, a maximum of 20 would be freed up for use elsewhere on the network - including displacing 385s on the Cathcart Circle to more suitable routes.

Then you're left over with:
48 x Intermediate coaches (all ex motor or unpowered 460s)
72 x Driving trailers (of which 8 are ex 460s)

This can then can be reformed for example, into:
17 x 4 coaches
14 x 3 coaches

This is more than enough to reform the units into other suitable lengths and quantities on other 3rd rail routes, or enough in storage for the next inevitable bin destined open access application, and/or the next nostalgia-fuelled loco hauled, or 'solution looking for a problem' proposals.

But ultimately, is this idea in itself delusional? Yes, without a doubt. 334s can't match the capacity of a full metro spec 318/320 in its current form, and they aren't new enough to be feasably reworked with any other Juniper fleet in the medium term (let alone the long term) to ever see worth or benefit in such a project.

 

[swt_passenger]

I shouldn't bother using logic with him. Anyone dumb enough to waste time typing out nonsense like the OP has isn't going to be bothered about any facts you might point out!

Most of it isn't even original, apart from the sheer numbers involved, which as said in earlier replies cannot feasibly be fitted on the Wessex network. A pity the OP didn't read a few other threads before coming up with this.

Seems to be the silly season for fantasy SW rolling stock proposals, with a number having already been posted this week, but this must take the prize as it's completely off the scale...

 

[CosherB]

Most of it isn't even original, apart from the sheer numbers involved, which as said in earlier replies cannot feasibly be fitted on the Wessex network. A pity the OP didn't read a few other threads before coming up with this.

Seems to be the silly season for fantasy SW rolling stock proposals, with a number having already been posted this week, but this must take the prize as it's completely off the scale...

I still think we should have a 'fantasy' board on here where this kind of bunkum can reside!

 

[MatthewRead]

Heard? Or making up your own ideas?

First have clearly announced that the 442s are for Portsmouth services.

It was in one of the new Rail Magazines.

 

[CosherB]

It was in one of the new Rail Magazines.

Well this article clearly states they're for Portsmouth services.

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/south-western-rail-commuters-faster-london-trains-firstgroup-mtr-stagecoach-a7652846.html

..... also applauded the decision to refurbish 18 class 442 trains, known as “plastic pigs” for their distinctive front ends. They will return to service on the London-Portsmouth line. “Using similar carriages to the InterCity 125, in my view the 442s are amongst the nicest trains to travel in which ever turned a wheel on the Southern” .....

 

[swt_passenger]

Hi all. I have just been having a think about all the SWT stock which First will be withdrawing soon. Basically if i was them this is what i would do with all of the units:

• Convert all of the AGA / FTPE / HC / LM 350s and 360s in to 450s (by adding third rail and end corridor connections where necessary) and send them all to SWT. This when mean that SWT would have a fleet of 240 (instead of 127 currently) four coach class 450 EMUs ...

It wouldn't have been quite so bad if you hadn't included the first bullet point, which is a completely opposite case to the preamble.

But even then, all the other proposals about outgoing stock are repeats of other 'ideas' already discussed.

Taking some other points.

Put 458s with 334s? Just ignore all the regular discussions about how difficult it would be to make them AC units. The original "send them to Scotrail" proposal fell at the first BCR hurdle when the trains were 10 years younger. Scotrail already have incoming Hitachi EMUs to meet their future needs.

455s? Southern's known existing plans do not require full utilisation of the 455s that they already have. Fit them with ASDO - you say easy but NR said it was not practically possible, which was used to justify the Wessex 10 car platform alterations on the main suburban side.

 

[Clansman]

Put 458s with 334s? Just ignore all the regular discussions about how difficult it would be to make them AC units. The original "send them to Scotrail" proposal fell at the first BCR hurdle when the trains were 10 years younger. Scotrail already have incoming Hitachi EMUs to meet their future.

The new Hitachi 385s for Scotrail won't cover any routes the 334s and the 318/320s work on, except for Cathcart Circle, for the sole sake of displacing the 314s. Scotrail will most likely seek to replace the 318/320s on these routes in the next franchise.

As for the 458 idea with the 334s, obviously making them into A.C. units of their own wouldn't work. But surely placing intermediate 458 coaches into an already A.C. set would be fairly straight forward, without forming new trains altogether in a similar style to their integration with the 460s?

 

[swt_passenger]

The new Hitachi 385s for Scotrail won't cover any routes the 334s and the 318/320s work on, except for Cathcart Circle, for the sole sake of displacing the 314s. Scotrail will most likely seek to replace the 318/320s on these routes in the next franchise.

As for the 458 idea with the 334s, obviously making them into A.C. units of their own wouldn't work. But surely placing intermediate 458 coaches into an already A.C. set would be fairly straight forward, without forming new trains altogether in a similar style to their integration with the 460s?

My main point is that it has already been suggested and discussed a few times since the March announcement so why does it all have to be done again?

 

[MatthewRead]

Well this article clearly states they're for Portsmouth services.

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/south-western-rail-commuters-faster-london-trains-firstgroup-mtr-stagecoach-a7652846.html

This was a more recent addition of RAIL I think.
They'd be better suited on the Weymouth line because they have more comfortable seats than the 444's

 

[Clansman]

My main point is that it has already been suggested and discussed a few times since the March announcement so why does it all have to be done again?

The OP has opened the thread for us to discuss and critique his ideas - which centre around the future of trains due to go off lease from SWT. That's exactly what I've done, and there's no harm in doing so.

Do you have any links to the relevant discussions?

 

[CheeseOnToast]

Have I missed what LM etc receive when they give up their 350s?!

 

[Feathers44]

Have I missed what LM etc receive when they give up their 350s?!

Apparently they're to buy new when the franchise renewal comes around (from post #1).

 

[F Great Eastern]

Far more likely what will happen with the 350s is they will stay with LM and the 26x 360s (109 cars) will go to LM to allow withdrawal of the 26x 323s (78 cars).

It would make sense from a maintenance and capacity point of view I think at least.

 

[Darandio]

• Convert all of the AGA / FTPE / HC / LM 350s and 360s in to 450s (by adding third rail and end corridor connections where necessary) and send them all to SWT.

So not only do you have the expense of adding third rail, but on top of that you also need 50 or so completely new cabs?

Or am I missing something here?

 

[Townsend Hook]

- Southern Coastway is designed around 3 and 6 car units, hence why the 313s have not already been replaced with 319s, other Electrostars etc.

The entirety of the coastway (with the exception of Brighton-Lewes) is served by London trains formed of multiples of 4 car, there are no platforms shorter than four car. I suspect one of the main reasons that the 313s haven't been replaced by four car units is simply the need to find siding space for a total of 19 extra carriages. There are no 313 services booked six car.

 

[swt_passenger]

The OP has opened the thread for us to discuss and critique his ideas - which centre around the future of trains due to go off lease from SWT. That's exactly what I've done, and there's no harm in doing so.

Do you have any links to the relevant discussions?

There was this one started earlier this week, as a reasonable example, but I won't look for them all, there are just too many to mention:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=149116

Here's a thread about the future of Southern 455s, active a couple of days ago:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=147932&page=3

As I posted earlier, if the OP had just stuck to units known to be leaving the Southwestern franchise he'd probably not have come in for so much stick, but his proposal to move almost every Desiro UK variant INTO the area was and remains ridiculous...

 

[CosherB]

This was a more recent addition of RAIL I think.
They'd be better suited on the Weymouth line because they have more comfortable seats than the 444's

Hmmmm ...... so because Rail says it, it must be true?

Why do the good folk of Weymouth need 'more comfortable' seats, compared to our Portsmouth friends? :roll: