West Cumbrian Mine gets go ahead

[ac6000cw]

You are Donald Trump and I claim my £5 reward.

Doh! My cover blown!

But seriously (and I'm in the climate-change-is-real camp), 20 years ago I'd expected that most of the UK coal-fired generating plant would slowly disappear and be replaced with a mixture of solar, wind, new nuclear capacity and maybe things like a Severn Barrage. Instead we seem to have had a temporary (re-)surge of using coal (presumably because of low world coal prices) and made almost zero progress with new nuclear, with renewables expanding via a kickstart of hefty subsidies (and a steady increase in carbon taxes to make coal less competitive). We seem to have muddled through rather than following a coherent plan.

(...and I don't see the US move-away-from-coal situation changing whatever Trump might say or do, because it's being driven by energy economics as much as regulation. Apart from anything else, I can imagine people in states with large amounts of desert/near-desert land rubbing their hands at the prospect of covering it with cheap-ish solar farms and selling the energy to the likes of California).

 

[najaB]

Instead we seem to have had a temporary (re-)surge of using coal (presumably because of low world coal prices)...

What's your basis for saying that? It's at odds with the published figures: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/chart/electricity-generation-mix-quarter-and-fuel-source-gb

 

[ac6000cw]

Go back to 2006 and there were real capacity concerns over Anglo - Scottish coal via the GSW and the Settle line (which was closed on nights then) - both routes had money spent on IBS signals , partial redoubling around Annan etc etc. (some freight operators asked for passenger services to be thinned out !)

So - the Settle line got some relaying done (twice in some places due to a not very good ballast job done with steel sleepers) , basically the lights were kept on.

I agree with you that most of that capacity expansion work was necessary at the time - to be honest (while money was available) I thought they should have gone further and fully re-signalled the S&C (and onward to Skipton) to reduce the future operating costs. The S&C seems to have a remarkable '9-lives' considering it was never intended to be built in the first place...

 

[ac6000cw]

What's your basis for saying that? It's at odds with the published figures: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/chart/electricity-generation-mix-quarter-and-fuel-source-gb

Just gut feel based on what's happened in rail haulage of coal (e.g. with FL and GBRf getting into the market). The Ofgem chart suggests that (until 2013 when the steep decline started) coal held on to its market share fairly well. I wasn't meaning to suggest that coal has usage has grown much, just that it hasn't steadily declined (as I might have expected) over the last 20 years.

Do you know why coal on the chart shows much larger seasonal variations than gas? Is it because coal can bought when prices are low and stockpiled easily and cheaply for the winter, whereas buying extra gas at times of high demand is expensive (or unavailable) and best avoided if possible?

 

[najaB]

Do you know why coal on the chart shows much larger seasonal variations than gas? Is it because coal can bought when prices are low and stockpiled easily and cheaply for the winter, whereas buying extra gas at times of high demand is expensive (or unavailable) and best avoided if possible?

That, and coal plants require more heavy maintenance than gas and nuclear. So they largely shut down over the summer when demand is at its lowest.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I do not diasgree , but here was some pressure - the later pressure in the next Control Period was W12 clearance - handled a bit better , with some excellent and money saving results ....

Want to look at wasted freight investment - consider Sundon Loop....on the MML.

I've often looked at Sundon Loop and thought that it must have been expensive because of what they've had to do with the bridges not to mention having to dig out the embankment. I take it from your comments that not many trains use it?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I've often looked at Sundon Loop and thought that it must have been expensive because of what they've had to do with the bridges not to mention having to dig out the embankment. I take it from your comments that not many trains use it?

A scheme that no-one wanted - even freight , but the NR mincing machine delivered it. Something goes in there to polish the rails now and then.

St Albans has a turnback siding with no track circuits - only used about 4 times an hour .....but not a sexy scheme for kit and big yellow plant. Signallers have to use a magnetic disc to remind themselves of what is in there .....Digital railway era eh ?

About £25 million for Sundon ......

 

[Dr Hoo]

We seem to have moved rather a long way from West Cumbria.:roll:

 

[markindurham]

Carlisle would be far easier - doesn't need to cross either the WCML on the flat if that curve is stll there, and there's also a conflict-free route across the ECML at Gateshead if it continues via Sunderland. The entire route is on llnes where the passenger trains wouldn't go much faster on average than a 60mph non-stop freight so the capacity penalty would be relatively small. A routeing via Carnforth would involve the challenge of getting through or round Leeds, and even the four-track between York and Northallerton is pretty busy these days.

This curve at Carnforth was/is above the WCML - it was never a 'flat crossing'.

 

[Elecman]

Would need Carnforth F&M Junction and East Junction re instating

 

[unlevel42]

https://www.westcumbriamining.com/what-is-the-plan/how-will-materials-be-transported/Planning permission has been given.

 

[randyrippley]

Would need Carnforth F&M Junction and East Junction re instating

not just that, the linking bridge would need replacement - my understanding is it was condemned around ten years ago.
It looks in a hell of a state

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

Reports in the Daily Telegraph at the weekend suggest the planned mine at Whitehaven will get the go-ahead following a lengthy enquiry.

Michael Gove seemingly supporting the proposals.

Coal to be moved by train to Redcar, several trains worth a day when at full production.

Sadly behind a paywall, if anyone can link the full article it’s appreciated: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/04/23/britains-first-new-coal-mine-decades-verge-approval/

Michael Gove is on the cusp of approving Britain's first coal mine in decades as the Cabinet rallies behind a proposal to wean the country off Russian imports.

The Housing Secretary is understood to be supportive of plans to open a Cumbrian colliery which will provide vital supplies for steel plants, senior Conservative party sources believe. Mr Gove's decision will now hinge on recommendations that have been handed to him by the Planning Inspectorate.

A source said: “I don’t know for certain, but I get the impression he [Mr Gove] is going to approve it.”


Woodhouse Colliery, the UK’s first deep coal mine in 30 years, was given the go-ahead by local councillors in October 2020, but ministers launched an inquiry six months later after opposition from activists ahead of the Cop26 climate change conference.

Previously discussed in this old thread on here too: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/west-cumbria-deep-coal-mine.148611/

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Recently asked the question on here (see below link - post #104, then #106) as to whether the coal from this proposed new mine would be suitable for use on heritage steam railway lines.

The general consensus, however, was no.

Coal Supply/Cost Issues

I'm surprised a pushy Rolls-Royce rep. hasn't popped up in this discussion yet, suggesting they'd be happy to complement their 'Small Modular Reactor' concept with a 'Tiny' version that will fit inside a locomotive firebox. As long as the taxpayer bungs them a few hundred million for...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[xotGD]

Reports in the Daily Telegraph at the weekend suggest the planned mine at Whitehaven will get the go-ahead following a lengthy enquiry.

Michael Gove seemingly supporting the proposals.

Coal to be moved by train to Redcar, several trains worth a day when at full production.

Sadly behind a paywall, if anyone can link the full article it’s appreciated: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/04/23/britains-first-new-coal-mine-decades-verge-approval/

Previously discussed in this old thread on here too: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/west-cumbria-deep-coal-mine.148611/

Surely Scunthorpe rather than Redcar? Unless it is being exported via the Tees.

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely Scunthorpe rather than Redcar? Unless it is being exported via the Tees.

It's for export for coking rather than domestic use. Hence Redcar.

I'll have try not to get to upset about coking coal which could have once upon a time been turned into coke and then exported going past the rubble of the South Bank and Redcar coke ovens.

 

[Iskra]

What route do we think these new freight trains would likely take?

 

[SeanG]

Presumably north up the coast - Carlisle avoider - Gateshead - Durham Coast - Redcar

 

[DarloRich]

I'll have try not to get to upset about coking coal which could have once upon a time been turned into coke and then exported going past the rubble of the South Bank and Redcar coke ovens.

Dont worry - High Viz Houchen will deliver a new world of opportunity for the site. (sigh)


PS i assume it is going out via the bulk terminal - a crumb of good news ( who owns the Bulk terminal now? )

 

[vic-rijrode]

Presumably north up the coast - Carlisle avoider - Gateshead - Durham Coast - Redcar

Alas not via Cockermouth, Keswick, Penrith, Barnard Castle, Darlington & Middlesbrough (which might have been a tadge more direct)...

 

[xotGD]

It's for export for coking rather than domestic use. Hence Redcar.

But also replacing imported coal at Scunthorpe, no?

 

[ainsworth74]

But also replacing imported coal at Scunthorpe, no?

My understanding was it was just for export.

 

[xotGD]

My understanding was it was just for export.

From their website:

"...to supply the UK and European steel-making coal market..."

They also have a logistics factsheet which indicates rail routes from Cumbria to Redcar, Scunthorpe and Port Talbot.

 

[DH1Commuter]

This was sold as displacing imported coal for UK steel-making.

 

[Spartacus]

From their website:

"...to supply the UK and European steel-making coal market..."

They also have a logistics factsheet which indicates rail routes from Cumbria to Redcar, Scunthorpe and Port Talbot.

Scunthorpe seems to have relocated to Derby looking at that map https://www.westcumbriamining.com/wp-content/uploads/WCM-Factsheet_Logistics_R60119.pdf Funny that they've mentioned a 37 too.

 

[alex17595]

How are they getting the coal to the railway? Are they going to ressurect the Corkickle brake? or go for a more boring option of a conveyor.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

Presumably north up the coast - Carlisle avoider - Gateshead - Durham Coast - Redcar

Correct. Think it was half a dozen a day each way when at full production levels.

 

[Darandio]

How are they getting the coal to the railway? Are they going to ressurect the Corkickle brake? or go for a more boring option of a conveyor.

Underground conveyor according to the factsheet.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

Decision delayed due to this week’s Government upheaval.

A decision on the UK's first new deep coal mine in 30 years has been delayed.

Communities Secretary Michael Gove had been due to make a ruling by Thursday, but it has been put back amid cabinet ministers' resignations.

West Cumbria Mining's plan for a coking coal pit near Whitehaven was approved by the county council in 2020 but the decision was later withdrawn.

A public inquiry was held last year to examine concerns of the mine's impact on the environment.

A government spokeswoman said the Planning Inspectorate's report had been received and a decision on the mine would be issued imminently.

However, a definitive new date for a decision has not been announced.

The planned mine would remove coking coal from beneath the Irish Sea for the production of steel in the UK and export to Europe.

Supporters claim it will create well-paid jobs for Cumbria and reduce the need to import coal but opponents warn of the risks of climate change.

Cumbria coal mine plan decision delayed

The decision over a controversial new coal mine in Cumbria is delayed amid government uncertainty.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[AJG3]

Recently asked the question on here (see below link - post #104, then #106) as to whether the coal from this proposed new mine would be suitable for use on heritage steam railway lines.

The general consensus, however, was no.

Coal Supply/Cost Issues

I'm surprised a pushy Rolls-Royce rep. hasn't popped up in this discussion yet, suggesting they'd be happy to complement their 'Small Modular Reactor' concept with a 'Tiny' version that will fit inside a locomotive firebox. As long as the taxpayer bungs them a few hundred million for...

www.railforums.co.uk

Well, the same coal was presumably used in the steam locos at Haig Colliery? If it was, which seam(s)…Main Band, Bannock Band etc?