Reopening the S&DJR - What are the realistic prospects?

[alexl92]

Been reading up on the plans of one or two groups to reopen sections of the Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway, a line which is much mourned by those who remember it. I'm interested to know how much could feasibly be reopened in the future? Clearly barring a miracle Bath Green Park is impossible but I'm fascinated to know what is a) possible and b) realistically feasible?

 

[A0]

Been reading up on the plans of one or two groups to reopen sections of the Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway, a line which is much mourned by those who remember it. I'm interested to know how much could feasibly be reopened in the future? Clearly barring a miracle Bath Green Park is impossible but I'm fascinated to know what is a) possible and b) realistically feasible?

Realistically - no chance.

The problem is the S&D was relatively lightly used even at its height.

Between Poole and Templecombe the only place of any size it served was Blandford. And you have a link between Poole and the Basingstoke - Exeter line going via Weymouth and then the old GW line to Yeovil.


The northern section (i.e. Templecombe - Bath) again tended to avoid places of any size - Shepton Mallet being about the only one of any significance.

The S&D was also quite a slow line - approx 72 miles which took 2-3 hours to cover - quite unlike the GCR say which had been designed and engineered for speed.

Now, even if you were able to reinstate the line with improved engineering, it's meandering route means that high speed running would be a struggle.

Ironically the journey between Bath and Bournemouth today at roughly 2.5 hours changing either at Southampton or Dorchester is quicker than most S&D trains were - that despite the added mileage those routes entail.

If getting a better journey time between the south coast i.e Bournemouth, Weymouth and places in the West i.e. Bath, Bristol, Gloucester is the aim, then improving the GW Heart of Wessex line would be a quicker and easier way to achieve this.

 

[squizzler]

I am inclined to agree with the above poster, but can you summarise the organisations (links!) that seem more plausible?

 

[HowardGWR]

Realistically - no chance.

The problem is the S&D was relatively lightly used even at its height.

Between Poole and Templecombe the only place of any size it served was Blandford. And you have a link between Poole and the Basingstoke - Exeter line going via Weymouth and then the old GW line to Yeovil.

No you don't have a link to the LSWR line, unless you are suggesting the little bus that trundles between the stations at Yeovil. You may have meant that Poole pax can get to Bath (and Bristol) via Weymouth with a reversal (the subject of the thread), but if so, I don't see where Basingstoke -Exeter comes into it. In S and D days, of course, one would have changed at Templecombe for that line.

In the post WW2 days, IIRC, the GWR did discuss with SR, the idea of closing Bath (Weston Bath) to Midford and the appallingly steep line through the low Devonshire tunnel. The links would have been at Weston Bath, then through Bath GWR and rejoining at Midford.

I agree with the rest of your post though.

Rail links from the well-heeled south coast, west of Bournemouth, to the Midlands and further north are very poor.

 

[DarloRich]

Been reading up on the plans of one or two groups to reopen sections of the Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway, a line which is much mourned by those who remember it. I'm interested to know how much could feasibly be reopened in the future? Clearly barring a miracle Bath Green Park is impossible but I'm fascinated to know what is a) possible and b) realistically feasible?

answer = None. ( at least not as part of the national network)

 

[Calthrop]

In the post WW2 days, IIRC, the GWR did discuss with SR, the idea of closing Bath (Weston Bath) to Midford and the appallingly steep line through the low Devonshire tunnel. The links would have been at Weston Bath, then through Bath GWR and rejoining at Midford.

One would assume -- using a section of the "Titfield Thunderbolt" line through Monkton Combe; and including new curves to avoid reversal at Limpley Stoke, and to join GW to S&D metals at Midford? A fascinating idea to conjure with !

 

[Harbornite]

One would assume -- using a section of the "Titfield Thunderbolt" line through Monkton Combe; and including new curves to avoid reversal at Limpley Stoke, and to join GW to S&D metals at Midford? A fascinating idea to conjure with !

I seem to recall recently reading about this plan in a 1930s issue of the railway magazine. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[Harbornite]

The S&D is one of those lines that would be nice if it was still in existence, but it wouldn't be the same today as it was in the 1950s. There's little chance of the entire route being reinstated as part of the national network, existing routes can handle the through traffic from Bournemouth to Manchester and as others have said, there aren't many places with large populations on the route. There's potential for the heritage projects at Midsomer Norton and Shillingstone to extend their mileage but that would be expensive enough.

Another point I'd argue is that if you wanted to reconnect Midsomer Norton and Radstock to the national network, it might be better to reinstate the line to Frome.

 

[30907]

You could get from Broadstone North to Blandford South on the only remotely useful section - unfortunately the section towards Poole is now a major road and industrial estate -so even that would be pointless.

 

[endecotp]

Between Poole and Templecombe the only place of any size it served was Blandford.

Wimborne's lack of a station is also unfortunate, in my opinion.
Of course it was not actually on the S&D but nearby and I think closed around the same time.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Wincanton has grown substantially, however you have the A303 dual carriageway breaching it and a large warehouse, plus housing covering the alignment.

Quite a bit missing around Cole too

 

[Firesprite]

Wimborne's lack of a station is also unfortunate, in my opinion.
Of course it was not actually on the S&D but nearby and I think closed around the same time.

The old road closed in 1964 to passenger traffic. Line remained open for MOD traffic to West Moors from the Poole end until 1974 (Country Council wanted to remove a rail bridge), When the line was cut back to Wimborne where a charter company was based, closed in 1977. Again the Country Council wanted the track bed for a road. The late Robert Adley former member for Christchurch was farsighted as he for told that the populations of the Towns and Villages along the route between Poole and Ringwood would vastly increase and the the track-bed should have been protected for future local rail network. The same could be said about the Old S&D line as far as Blandford. 50 years on the roads along the Stour valley has barely improved much apart from two by-passes.

 

[edwin_m]

It seems to me that with the benefit of hindsight the southern end of the S&D along with Castleman's Corkscrew should have been protected as it's a relatively densely populated area with scope for commuter services. But it's hard to see a good case for the rest of it. IIRC it's possible to travel between Bournemouth and Bath with a change at Southampton every hour in less time than the fastest train in S&D days. This route also serves the major population centres of Southampton and Salisbury while the S&D only called at very small places in between.

 

[HowardGWR]

It seems to me that with the benefit of hindsight the southern end of the S&D along with Castleman's Corkscrew should have been protected as it's a relatively densely populated area with scope for commuter services. But it's hard to see a good case for the rest of it. IIRC it's possible to travel between Bournemouth and Bath with a change at Southampton every hour in less time than the fastest train in S&D days. This route also serves the major population centres of Southampton and Salisbury while the S&D only called at very small places in between.

Agreed, but the journey is just less slow - it's still slow. Bournemouth and Bristol are the two biggest conurbations in the South West Region and deserve an inter-city approach to service provision. Southampton to Bristol, itself, is a 'stop at every farmyard' service.

 

[edwin_m]

Agreed, but the journey is just less slow - it's still slow. Bournemouth and Bristol are the two biggest conurbations in the South West Region and deserve an inter-city approach to service provision. Southampton to Bristol, itself, is a 'stop at every farmyard' service.

The S&D might make it a tad faster if it cut out most of the intermediate stops, which is reasonable considering those stops don't serve anywhere significant. But a diversion via Bathampton, needed to access Bristol unless you also re-open the Fishponds route, would extend the journey time again. And I'm not sure what the residents of Midford would say about having a new viaduct over their heads to make this connection.

Bournemouth and Poole are about 320,000 population combined, but the existing route serves Southampton and Portsmouth with over 400,000 people*, plus Salisbury. So it's unlikely that an S&D service would generate as many passengers as the existing Portsmouth-Cardiff, which is only a regional service using 3-car units (although it needs more).

*Not in the South West region but a similar distance from Bristol.

 

[A0]

Agreed, but the journey is just less slow - it's still slow. Bournemouth and Bristol are the two biggest conurbations in the South West Region and deserve an inter-city approach to service provision. Southampton to Bristol, itself, is a 'stop at every farmyard' service.

But is there actually the demand for travel between Bournemouth and Bristol?

They are in totally separate counties and I suspect the travel demand is much more towards the other key places in those areas, so for Bristol it is Exeter, Gloucester, Swindon whereas for Bournemouth it's Poole, Weymouth or Southampton. And to that end Bristol most certainly does have 'Inter City' services and for Bournemouth whilst not badged 'Inter City' the services there are very much long-distance in nature rather than commuter.

It's pushing it a bit to claim Bournemouth is in the 'South West' really - Bournemouth's pretty much due south of Birmingham.... Weymouth just about justifies itself being 'South West', but I'm not sure Bournemouth does.

 

[alex17595]

I always wonder how useful the Highbridge branch would be. I goes straight through the festival site.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I always wonder how useful the Highbridge branch would be. I goes straight through the festival site.

A single carriage train sufficed in the 19thC ......

 

[A0]

A single carriage train sufficed in the 19thC ......

Which means according to some of the more outlandish crayonistas around here, it should immediately be reopened, electrified using 750v DC third rail and operated using 10 car formations of class 442s every 10 minutes

 

[edwin_m]

A single carriage train sufficed in the 19thC ......

If it had remained open today it would have been a 153 every hour or less, and during the Festival no extra stock would be available so the service would be cancelled entirely to avoid overcrowding. See also Ricoh Arena.

 

[Bevan Price]

Nil chance of it reopening (unless they build a mega-size new town somewhere near the former alignment. )

The S&D was a superfluous consequence of "free market forces" and the competition / rivalry between the GWR, LSWR & MR. If there had been sensible forethought & planning, they might have linked the GWR Bristol/ Yatton - Witham line somewhere near Shepton Mallet to what became the southern section of the S&DJR. Instead, both lines were underused & closed. Or alternatively, they might have used a more westerly alignment, and routed it via Yeovil.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Which means according to some of the more outlandish crayonistas around here, it should immediately be reopened, electrified using 750v DC third rail and operated using 10 car formations of class 442s every 10 minutes

Indeed - there seems a huge disconnect sometimes about what is really worth doing on a "sustainable" basis and what one might think about on a Glastonbury trip. My no 2 son has gone , on a chartered bus / coach from Luton - perfect - he would not consider the train with what he had to carry, and neither would anyone else. Realistically FGW and others do a bit for Glasto . and that seems to be enough for the once in a year fest.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Nil chance of it reopening (unless they build a mega-size new town somewhere near the former alignment. )

The S&D was a superfluous consequence of "free market forces" and the competition / rivalry between the GWR, LSWR & MR. If there had been sensible forethought & planning, they might have linked the GWR Bristol/ Yatton - Witham line somewhere near Shepton Mallet to what became the southern section of the S&DJR. Instead, both lines were underused & closed. Or alternatively, they might have used a more westerly alignment, and routed it via Yeovil.

But there is more discontent about this "ruthless" closure than there is at the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem. Spoke to local staff of the era, the trains were bereft of freight and passengers , and not much genuine support economically. The line was a sort of income stream or the staff.

 

[A0]

But there is more discontent about this "ruthless" closure than there is at the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem. Spoke to local staff of the era, the trains were bereft of freight and passengers , and not much genuine support economically. The line was a sort of income stream or the staff.

The S&D does seem to have gained some form of mythical status - more so than some of the other closures which were far more marginal - the Waverley route or GC spring to mind as those which were probably much more viable than the S&D.

Ironically even today, it's possible to make the journey between Bath and Bournemouth more quickly using the routes via Weymouth or Southampton than it was using the direct S&D route. The S&D was a *very* slow route - even modern engineering and rolling stock would struggle to make it a competitive route time-wise and that's before you start considering the wider practicalities, specifically that it really didn't serve anywhere of any significance en-route.

Had it survived it would probably be run using something like a Class 153 on an odd timetable pattern taking forever and a day to cover the 70 or so miles of the route.

 

[Andrewlong]

Why do those who miss the line the line the most expect the state to spend huge sums of money bringing back something which has a low rate of return on its business case ? I have more sympathy who acquire a stretch of the track bed and create a heritage railway.

 

[DerekC]

Ironically even today, it's possible to make the journey between Bath and Bournemouth more quickly using the routes via Weymouth or Southampton than it was using the direct S&D route. The S&D was a *very* slow route - even modern engineering and rolling stock would struggle to make it a competitive route time-wise and that's before you start considering the wider practicalities, specifically that it really didn't serve anywhere of any significance en-route.

Had it survived it would probably be run using something like a Class 153 on an odd timetable pattern taking forever and a day to cover the 70 or so miles of the route.

I don't think there is an ice cube's chance in a barbecue of the S&D reopening, but I do wonder whether the "then and now" comparisons of journey time are fair. The southern section of the S&D doesn't appear to have gradients and curves that are too scary, and no doubt most of the intermediate stations would have closed by now anyway. North of Evercreech Junction is a different matter, but maybe this is where an alternative route might have come in. A south to east chord at Cole and run to Bath via Westbury, maybe? I doubt it's much longer in miles.

PS - I have a feeling this thread is in the wrong section!

 

[DerekC]

Why do those who miss the line the line the most expect the state to spend huge sums of money bringing back something which has a low rate of return on its business case ? I have more sympathy who acquire a stretch of the track bed and create a heritage railway.

I don't think any of the contributors to this thread are seriously suggesting reopening at public expense. Check target is hostile before launching missile!

 

[Polarbear]

I'm not old enough to remember the line, but from what I've gathered, it wasn't particularly busy, even in it's heyday. Operating the line wasn't straightforward either due to the single line sections & some steep climbs, especially out of Bath.

It was however, seemingly well loved by enthusiasts of the time, and I think that's probably why there seems to be more than a whiff of nostalgia about the line.

In today's world, I can't see the market for the line to be honest, and I doubt that there's much/any chance of ever seeing it restored as a through line in its entirety. It's possible that some small sections may eventually be restored as preservation outfits, but even that's becoming less likely as time goes on.

Not the S&DJR, but I would have kept the line through Ringwood & Wimborne as I can see a viable market for that.

 

[HowardGWR]

Would not a serious update of the line Weymouth to Bristol / Swindon (essentially the WW&WR) do the trick? The present route is low speed, part single tracked, and stocked with bus-like units. A service starting in Bournemouth and reversing in Weymouth, that could run every hour, and provided better comfort and did not try to be a local service at the same time, could be transformational. I suggest that a service from Bournemouth that, after Weymouth, only stopped at Dorchester West (having already stopped at South on the way*), then only Yeovil, Westbury, Trowbridge, Bath and Bristol, would provide most of what the S&DJR attempted to provide. Connection at Westbury or Trowbridge for Swindon would provide a link north eastwards.

*The alternative is to provide a turn back siding at Dorchester or construct a chord through "Do-it-all" across the carpark. The former is realistic, not the latter, I think.

 

[HowardGWR]

Not the S&DJR, but I would have kept the line through Ringwood & Wimborne as I can see a viable market for that.

There's a lorra sense in that.