London Euston to Edale via Stockport?

[itfcfan]

I'm intending to travel to Edale next Friday evening (23rd June). I'd like to use an off-peak return - costing £82.40, restriction code 9I. This means I'll be restricted to departing Euston after 18:44, so I'll arrive in Manchester after 21:00 (missing the 20:45 Piccadilly to Edale service). The next service to Edale is at 22:28 - it's an East Midlands Train service via Stockport.

Using virgintrains.co.uk and chilternrailways.com (the first two booking engines I've tried) I can't find an itinerary using the 22:28 Piccadilly - Edale service, hence no itineraries are offered after the evening peak. I think no itinerary is given, because this train stops at Stockport, hence the shortest interchange is at Stockport rather than Piccadilly. Fares from London to Edale seem to either be "via Manchester" or "via Chesterfield". Given travelling via Stockport is neither of these options, it seems the route can't be ticketed.

So, in summary, I think(!) I should be fine to purchase the £82.40 off-peak return (code 9I, via Manchester) and use it to travel after 18:44 from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly and change to the 22:28 Manchester Piccadilly to Edale (even if I can't get it shown as an itinerary).

I expect it's also unlikely a guard would challenge me if I avoided going all the way into Manchester Piccadilly and got off at Stockport and changed there instead (allowing me to take a later train from London and reduce the overall journey time).

Please let me know if that's right, or I've missed any additional restrictions preventing this journey on this fare.

 

[yorkie]

It's an absurd situation, but yes, if the itinerary doesn't go via Sheffield or via Manchester, then unless there's an easement put in place, you won't get a fare for the journey.

In practice you are not going to have any problems changing at Stockport. The ticket is valid for doubling-back via Manchester but you are not compelled to do the double-back.

The "via Manchester" routeing allows you to take all permitted routes from London to Manchester, plus all permitted routes from Manchester to Edale. So you may interchange at Manchester; as you say, the trains you identify do connect at Manchester Piccadilly.

However, break of journey (BOJ) is permitted. Electronic booking engines do not know if BOJ is permitted or not, and none of them can handle the concept of BOJ (yet); it is permitted to 'break' your journey at Stockport, then not use the validity doubling back via Manchester, and 'resume' the journey from Stockport to Edale. In fact, if you do not leave the station, you are arguably not actually 'breaking' your journey anyway!

You can get an itinerary on many websites if you specify via Manchester (and there is one website I know of, that gives you an itinerary by default, see list below). It is entirely up to you whether you actually go to Manchester or not (personally, I would!)

NRE also validates it (see screenshot)

The following sites will offer the 20:00 - 23:01 itinerary with the Off Peak fare if you specify via Manchester explicitly but will not offer this by default:-

• Ticketclever
• Atos WebTIS powered sites
• Thetrainline powered sites
• National Rail Enquiries (NRE) - information only (does not sell fares)
• Assertis powered sites
• Takethetrain

The following site will not offer the 20:00 - 23:01 itinerary even if you specify via Manchester:

• Traingenius

The following site will offer the 20:00 - 23:01 itinerary with the Off Peak fare automatically, without any need to specify via Manchester:

• Trainscanbecheaper

 

[gray1404]

20:00 London Euston [EUS]
Stockport [SPT]
21:54


22:38 Stockport [SPT]
Edale [EDL]
23:01

I am getting the above result on National Rail but no fare is being shown whatsoever. It is for all of the other earlier and more expensive journeys (which involve a change at Sheffield or Manchester)

I could not in practice see you being challenged given what you are doing is reasonable and the station you are travelling to has a limited service and you are, in effect be your routing be right or wrong, travelling on the last service of the day.

I would advise you print off the above itinerary from National Rail too (granted no fare is displayed but still).

 

[scrapy]

Am certain you won't have a problem. The EMT guard won't know you haven't been via Manchester anyhow. I'm sure there used to be an easement saying 'tickets routed via Manchester are valid via Stockport' or something similar. There certainly is one the other way round allowing tickets routed via Stockport to be used via romiley.

 

[itfcfan]

It's an absurd situation, but yes, if the itinerary doesn't go via Sheffield or via Manchester, then unless there's an easement put in place, you won't get an itinerary changing at Stockport.

Thanks. What I find (somewhat) strange is I also don't get the service at this time as an itinerary changing at Manchester Piccadilly. My assumption here is the ticketing engine finds the (more logical) change at Stockport, so the option of changing in Manchester doesn't make it as far as being offered as an itinerary.

 

[yorkie]

The ticket is valid, I will edit my post to clarify this.

 

[yorkie]

When you search for London Euston to Edale departing at 20:00 without specifying any via stations, the Virgin Trains website says "The results above show single ticket prices, based on the fastest available journey, to offer more flexibility to our customers" however they offer less flexibility and get you to Edale at 09:32 instead of 23:01, a mere 10 hours 31 minutes later than the actual fastest available journey. I do not believe Virgin Trains are complying with consumer law making such statements.

It is counter-intuitive that a customer should have to have specialist knowledge that they need to specify via Manchester manually in order to get the actual fastest journey

 

[yorkie]

...My assumption here is the ticketing engine finds the (more logical) change at Stockport....

Just to add, for those interested in this sort of thing, it's the journey planning engine that does this.

Many booking sites use the same supplier for both fares and journey planning, while some use different suppliers for each.

Most journey planning engines are not optimised in a way that will find the cheapest fares, but attempting to do such an optimisation can be problematical (especially as some fares validities depend on the existence/validity of other fares)

 

[30907]

Presumably this anomaly goes back to the days before the Hazel Grove chord was built and Stockport-Edale became a possible route?

How many years ago was that (rhetorical question only!)?

 

[yorkie]

The fares have been routed this way since at least NFM64 (1996).

However booking engines should show a valid itinerary departing Euston at 2000, arriving into Edale at 2301, regardless of that, as there is a valid connection at Manchester.

 

[Merseysider]

I don't believe a route:Manchester ticket actually requires one to travel via Manchester.

It requires one to eliminate routes shown in the NRG which do not pass through Manchester.

Map combinations which include travel via Manchester are valid but the customer is under no obligation to double-back from Stockport.

Of course, not every journey planner will see it this way. And NRE is, quite frankly, a pile of crap.

Ticket offices should be able to bring this itinerary up without issue.

 

[paul1609]

Personally Id go on the 19.55 service from St Pancras its cheaper and a much nicer route assuming you come back in the light! Theres not much to choose between a Meridian and Pendolino and it avoids the walk down Euston road (in my case).

 

[yorkie]

I'd go for the 1955 as you'll have the superior comfort of an HST.

Even on EMT's own website, a search for London (any) to Edale after 19:30 just gives the option of their rival's 20:00 from Euston, with no fare.

You have to specifically search from St Pancras (or search for via Sheffield) to find it.

The rail industry really doesn't want to do much to attract customers at times.