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Cardiff Queen Street - long queues

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ValleyLines142

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This morning I caught the 1056 Cardiff Queen Street to Penarth service. I arrived at 1046 to purchase my ticket.

For those who know the layout of the ticket office at Queen Street, there are two ticket machines on the left as you walk in, and then three separate windows, although two are for excess fares and one is for purchasing tickets for travel, these being divided by the ticket barriers.

The queue for both ticket machines were 3 to 4 deep, and the same for the sole window to purchase tickets from. There was a couple who looked to be buying something rather complex, as they were filling out a form, and then there were two people in front of me.

As I looked on the departure boards, I noticed the time was ticking fast to 56 minutes past....52....53....etc. I asked the gateline assistant if I could purchase my ticket on the train, as I'd been waiting nine minutes to buy a ticket, and I had my railcard and money ready in my hand. I was told no. I did say that I was about to miss my train, only to be told to 'get the next one as they're every fifteen minutes'.

My blood by this point boiled hotter than it has ever done in my 23 years of being on the planet. I was seething.

The gentleman in front of me shared exactly the views, saying that the staffing levels were totally inadequate. I expressed my sentiments to the gateline assistant and asked what he felt; he just said no and that it's 'just how it is'. I asked if he could let us through the barriers so that we could purchase from the excess fares windows, to which he did agree. The gentleman in front of me kindly let me go in front, as his train wasn't until 1100 (if you are on this forum, thank you sir!). However, as it was less than a minute, I politely declined and said thank you, and overrode the gateline assistant's decision and proceeded up to the platform. He said something to me but I brushed my arm at him as if to say look I seriously have to go. I made my train with LESS THAN THIRTY seconds to spare. I purchased my ticket on the train with no problems.

I just wanted to check how long an acceptable wait should be at a station? I understand in the peak it is a minimum of five minutes but off-peak I was told three?

I complained to Arriva Trains Wales however I just got a generic 'sorry for this, we will pass on your comments'. I guarantee nothing will get done.

I just cannot imagine what the place must be like at 8am or 5pm.

I did state to the gateline assistant that whilst the clearly inadequate staffing levels was not personally his fault, he should have allowed me to board my train, especially as I had my money and railcard ready and I should not have had to miss my train when I had been waiting almost ten minutes.

Any views?
 
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221129

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You're very lucky that nothing was taken further on this occasion. Your fare is due before travel where facilities are available, which they were. ATW would have had a slam dunk RoRA Prosecution after you left the barrier line.
 

Merseysider

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DanTrainMan185 said:
Any views?
Yes.

Before I joined the forum and became aware of the potential consequences for ticketless travel I would probably have done exactly the same thing.

But you really ought to be careful. Regardless of how inadequate ATW's staffing levels are, a 15 minute delay really isn't worth the risk of getting caught ticketless by RPIs.

I'd ask ATW what measures they have in place to ensure passengers do not have to queue longer than the times stipulated in their Passengers Charter, and what recourse their passengers have when these waiting times are exceeded.
 

headshot119

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Although I sympathise as they really didn't do a good job of sorting ticket sales provision out during the refit. Ignoring the gateline assistant and boarding the train without a ticket could have lead to a lot of trouble.
 

yorkie

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...I did say that I was about to miss my train, only to be told to 'get the next one as they're every fifteen minutes'...
Yes, this is consistent with ATW's views towards their customers. They know you have no choice but to use them.
The gentleman in front of me shared exactly the views, saying that the staffing levels were totally inadequate. I expressed my sentiments to the gateline assistant and asked what he felt; he just said no and that it's 'just how it is'.
This doesn't surprise me. They treat customers for granted.
I asked if he could let us through the barriers so that we could purchase from the excess fares windows, to which he did agree. The gentleman in front of me kindly let me go in front, as his train wasn't until 1100 (if you are on this forum, thank you sir!). However, as it was less than a minute, I politely declined and said thank you, and overrode the gateline assistant's decision and proceeded up to the platform. He said something to me but I brushed my arm at him as if to say look I seriously have to go. I made my train with LESS THAN THIRTY seconds to spare. I purchased my ticket on the train with no problems.
Unfortunately the company could have prosecuted you; the law is completely biased towards the train companies.
I just wanted to check how long an acceptable wait should be at a station?
Write to ATW and ask them how early you should arrive before your train is due to depart. I suspect they will refuse to answer that question though.
I understand in the peak it is a minimum of five minutes but off-peak I was told three?
At that time, 3 minutes. But the company regularly flouts this. They claim to "audit queuing times regularly"; you could try asking them for a copy of the audit results. I suspect they will refuse to answer that too.
I complained to Arriva Trains Wales however I just got a generic 'sorry for this, we will pass on your comments'. I guarantee nothing will get done.
Reply to them asking for a proper response, and refer the matter to Transport Focus.
I did state to the gateline assistant that whilst the clearly inadequate staffing levels was not personally his fault, he should have allowed me to board my train, especially as I had my money and railcard ready and I should not have had to miss my train when I had been waiting almost ten minutes.
Morally, you are in the right. But the company is allowed to get away with being immoral as they have the law on their side. The law needs to change and it needs to change soon.

If queues are regularly longer than in ATW's passenger charter (3 minutes off peak / 5 minutes peak), you can report the company to the regulator. If many people reported this, then the company would have to either employ more staff or allow people to buy on board. But if people do not report it, the long queues will likely continue unabated.

The company doesn't value you, or me, or indeed any of us, as a customer.
 

Adlington

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I'd ask ATW what measures they have in place to ensure passengers do not have to queue longer than the times stipulated in their Passengers Charter
.... which says
Sufficient staff will be employed in ticket offices so that you should not have to wait for more than five minutes at peak times and three minutes at other times.
 

Merseysider

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Adlington said:
Sufficient staff will be employed in ticket offices so that you should not have to wait for more than five minutes at peak times and three minutes at other times.
This is clearly not the case though.
 

philthetube

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It sounds as if the gateline person could have been proactive and let people buy tickets at the excess fare windows.
 

philthetube

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But he could have made that offer as soon as a queue started to build, (Proactive), and not wait until passengers were getting frustrated.
 

island

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Looks like you've committed a criminal offence on this occasion by choosing not to use available ticketing facilities before joining a train. Lucky you weren't prosecuted.
 

Adlington

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Looks like you've committed a criminal offence on this occasion by choosing not to use available ticketing facilities before joining a train.
Is it really a criminal offence to start a journey without a ticket from a station with ticketing facilities? If you admit being ticketless and offer to pay when challenged by the conductor, you may be liable for a penalty fare, but it's not the same as "criminal offence", is it?
 

yorkie

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Is it really a criminal offence to start a journey without a ticket from a station with ticketing facilities? If you admit being ticketless and offer to pay when challenged by the conductor, you may be liable for a penalty fare, but it's not the same as "criminal offence", is it?
If you intend to pay but choose not to use facilities at your origin station this is still a Byelaw offence under criminal law. It is not a criminally recordable offence, though.

In this case ATW would no doubt get a lot of bad press from such a case, due to flouting their charter and providing inadequate facilities. But the laws are on their side and very much against passengers.

See RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 8 - Legal

The law should be changed. It should be a 'level playing field', but of course that will never happen.
 

Gareth Marston

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In a metropolitan area like SE Wales there should be an SMART Card System anyway which would negate this issue - hopefully for the new franchise....

You can get queues even here in rural Mid Wales , certain trains on a Saturday when we get groups going off to Shrewsbury or Aberystwyth I can be constantly churning tickets out for a good 10-15 minutes before departure with a queue out the door.

Were also "Travel Centre" between trains as well and its not uncommon for 2 or 3 people to be waiting more than 5 minutes sometimes. This is usually a result of people wanting "the best deals" so your spending time looking at different routes/AP options at different times etc for them (which is why they come here).
 

island

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Is it really a criminal offence to start a journey without a ticket from a station with ticketing facilities? If you admit being ticketless and offer to pay when challenged by the conductor, you may be liable for a penalty fare, but it's not the same as "criminal offence", is it?

Yes it is a criminal offence, under section 18 of the Railway Byelaws.
 

6Gman

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Is it really a criminal offence to start a journey without a ticket from a station with ticketing facilities? If you admit being ticketless and offer to pay when challenged by the conductor, you may be liable for a penalty fare, but it's not the same as "criminal offence", is it?

A telling phrase.
 

Fare-Cop

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GUIDANCE FOR RAIL TRAVELLERS:
This extract is taken from information to the public posted on the government’s own website at: Direct.gov.uk


Your responsibilities when you travel by rail

Along with your rights, you have certain responsibilities when you travel on the railways.


Have a valid ticket

Make sure you have enough time to buy your ticket. Don't get on a train without a ticket, even if there's a long queue at the ticket office.

You must have the right ticket for your journey. Make sure your ticket:
• shows the correct details for your journey
• can be used on the routes, trains and during the time you intend to travel
• isn't damaged or changed
• is kept safe - if you lose it or it's stolen, you can't travel
Show your ticket when asked. If you bought your ticket with a Railcard, you must show this too.

Boarding and changing trains
You're responsible for boarding the right train and travelling in the right part.
Make sure you that you:
• get off the train and change at the right station
• leave enough time to change trains
• keep your luggage with you at all times
• sit or stand in first class only if your ticket allows

The train company isn't responsible for any delay or loss if you haven't followed this guidance.

(Extract ends.)

Further information can be found in the National Rail Conditions of Travel and National Railways Byelaws (2005). A relevant extract regarding tickets is reproduced here:

EXTRACT FROM NATIONAL RAILWAYS BYELAWS (2005)

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.


(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an
authorised person.

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and at the station where, he began his journey; or

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.
 
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neilmc

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So a TOC can be REWARDED for their incompetence and poor service simply by refusing to staff a station adequately, or provide adequate ticketing facilities, then do a sting with RPIs and gain far more in fake fines than they would have received if they had been competent and sold everyone a ticket in time. No wonder there is no incentive to improve performance!
 

Fare-Cop

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If queues are regularly longer than in ATW's passenger charter (3 minutes off peak / 5 minutes peak), you can report the company to the regulator. If many people reported this, then the company would have to either employ more staff or allow people to buy on board. But if people do not report it, the long queues will likely continue unabated.


Yorkie's quote in respect of the TOCs Passenger Charter is correct and I agree, better facilities seem desirable. However, charters are not legally binding, they are a set of aims that the TOCs say they will endeavour to deliver to the best of their ability. Some sanctions might be imposed, but RDG (formerly ATOC) has no power to force a TOC to do anything. DfT may do so if there is evidence of a wilful negligence by the franchise holder.

The main difference between Charter aims and Byelaws & Statutory Legislations is that the latter ARE legally binding.

Having been allowed to pass through the barrier on condition that he purchased a ticket from the fares to pay window before boarding any train, but then reneging on that condition, the OP could have been successfully prosecuted.
 

Fare-Cop

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Yes it is a criminal offence, under section 18 of the Railway Byelaws.

Penalty Fares do not apply anywhere on Arriva Trains Wales services.

Penalty Fares can only be applied on routes where a DfT approved scheme is in place. It's up to a TOC whether or not they apply for such a scheme and there is no obligation to do so. The National Rail Byelaws however are commonly applicable across the rail network whether or not a PF scheme is in place.
 
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yorkie

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So a TOC can be REWARDED for their incompetence and poor service simply by refusing to staff a station adequately, or provide adequate ticketing facilities, then do a sting with RPIs and gain far more in fake fines than they would have received if they had been competent and sold everyone a ticket in time. No wonder there is no incentive to improve performance!
Correct. The DfT likes it this way, and so do most franchised TOCs. It stinks.
 

island

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Penalty Fares do not apply anywhere on Arriva Trains Wales services.

Penalty Fares can only be applied on routes where a DfT approved scheme is in place. It's up to a TOC whether or not they apply for such a scheme and there is no obligation to do so. The National Rail Byelaws however are commonly applicable across the rail network whether or not a PF scheme is in place.

I'm not sure if you've quoted the right post, but nothing in my post mentioned Penalty Fares so I'm a tad confused.
 

Fare-Cop

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I'm not sure if you've quoted the right post, but nothing in my post mentioned Penalty Fares so I'm a tad confused.

Ooops!! I am sorry island - you are of course correct, I have quoted the wrong post. Please accept my apology for the confusion

It was this post by Adlington that you'd replied to and which I meant to quote.

Is it really a criminal offence to start a journey without a ticket from a station with ticketing facilities? If you admit being ticketless and offer to pay when challenged by the conductor, you may be liable for a penalty fare, but it's not the same as "criminal offence", is it?

Boarding without a ticket where you could have bought one and with intent only to 'offer to pay when challenged' can be prosecuted. (S.5.3.a RoRA[1889]- Corbyn [1978])
 
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cjmillsnun

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Is it really a criminal offence to start a journey without a ticket from a station with ticketing facilities? If you admit being ticketless and offer to pay when challenged by the conductor, you may be liable for a penalty fare, but it's not the same as "criminal offence", is it?

Pay when challenged. Used by a certain Piers Corbyn. He got prosecuted.
 

Wombat

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Looks like you've committed a criminal offence on this occasion by choosing not to use available ticketing facilities before joining a train.

I'm sure you're right, and I wouldn't want to play armchair philosopher in court, but I can't help thinking that the definition of "available" is debatable in this context.
 

yorkie

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I would love to see ATW lose a case for prosecuting someone in the circumstances described but it would be inadvisable for anyone to let the matter go to court, unless you had deep pockets and a solicitor who was very confident in winning such a case.

However if ATW saw that the case was going to be robustly defended, they could withdraw the prosecution in order to avoid a potential defeat. I have heard of the likes of FCC doing this.
 

clagmonster

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In this case, if you were to ask the guard prior to boarding the train, I think there is no byelaw 18 breach as you have then got permission from an authorised person. However, I do believe there was a breach of byelaw 9 section 2:
"(2) Where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station is via a manned or an automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the barrier in the correct manner"
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf
The permission to pass the barriers was conditional, the condition was not met.
 

Sprinter153

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I agree with many of the points you are making, but the self-entitled strop you had whilst looking down your nose at the staff - sorry - 'overriding the gateline assistant's decision' probably wasn't the best way to go about it.

A lot does need to change, I completely agree, but ways and means. I know this won't be popular but I don't think the bull in a china shop approach will achieve anything.
 
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