Letter back from First Transpennie Re Refund

[northernrail2009]

Yesterday I got a letter back from First Transpennie with ref to my Refund claim due to me getting into leeds some 3 hours late a couple of weeks ago and i am far from happy with it so here it is and please see what you all think of it.

Dear Mr Warner

Thankyou for contacting us about your journey on 28th february 2009.

I apologise for the inconvenience caused by the delay to your journey with us on board the 18.52 service between newcastle and leeds on this occasion.

The delay to your journey was caused as the result of a fatality on the line at durham.as is policy with an incident involving a death on the railway the line was closed and the british transport police took control of the scene.
every effort was made by all concerned to reopen the line as quickly as possible,but first transpennie express had no direct control over how soon this happened.
as a result of the line closure many of our services were disrupted.

In addition some of our trains and staff were displaced from their scheduled location and other services across our network were consequently affected.

Given the nature of the incident and the level of disruption this caused,it was difficult for us to relay information to our customers in our normal timely way.
I can appreciate that this compounded your frustration.
we always review the way such incidents are handled by our staff in order to improve our response to our customers in the future.
i can assure you that all feedback that we receive from our customers is used as part of this process.

I also note your mention that there was replacement road transport arranged that did not arrive.

I have looked into this and i can confirm that this was arranged,travelling from newcastle and stopping at chester le street and durham en route to darlington.
this service did run picking up passengers from outside the front of the relevant stations.

as you can appreciate first transpennie express has no way of preventing an incident of this nature and as such under the national conditions of carriage compensation is not available for the resulting delay to journey.

thankyou for contacting us.


That was a letter that i got from them about problems i had on a train trip back from newcastle.

now are they right that im not due to have my ticket refunded?? also i waited along with many others at newcastle for a round 3 hours and no road transport turned up so that is not true by first transpennie.

in the end it ended up that i and along with my 7 year old son got back to leeds some 3 hours late and this was on a sat night which is not a nice time to be waitting in newcastle on a sat night.

can someone please advised me on this please.

 

[glynn80]

Unfortunately for you they are correct. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage states the following

42. Compensation for delays
(a) Where delays, cancellations or poor service arise for reasons within the control of a Train Company or Rail Service Company, you are entitled to compensation in accordance with the arrangements set out in that Train Company's Passenger’s Charter. This can be obtained from the relevant Train Company’s ticket offices, customer relations office or internet site.

45. Circumstances that are not within a Train Company’s control
For the purposes of Conditions 42 and 43, circumstances that are not within a Train Company’s control include:
(a) acts or threats of vandalism or terrorism;
(b) suicides or accidents involving trespassers;
(c) gas leaks or fires in lineside buildings not caused by a Train Company or a Rail Service Company or any of their employees or agents;
(d) line closures at the request of the police or emergency services;
(e) exceptionally severe weather conditions;
(f) industrial action by a Train Company’s, or Rail Service Company’s, staff or agents or by any other person;
(g) riots or civil commotion; and
(h) fire, mechanical or electrical failure or a defect (except where this is caused by a Train Company or Rail Service Company or their employees or agents, or as a result of the condition of a Train Company’s trains).


So basically the delay was not caused by FTPE and so they are not liable for compensation in this case and in my opinion this is quite rightly so, why should a TOC be liable for delays it did not cause. This is however the first occasion I have seen a TOC refuse a rather large delay even when they have been caused by a third-party, another recession effect it seems.

 

[Skarpur]

It's a bit of a strange one as severe weather conditions is also beyond the control of the TOC, yet in July 2007 when I got stuck at Birmingham New Street because of flooding (couldn't get to Derby, the SW, XC route to Reading, and probably a few more areas!) I got a full refund including the ticket I'd used to travel to Birmingham, and the tickets I was meant to use for onward travel a couple of days later.

I'm not sure if it was because I'd bought another ticket to get me out of Birmingham to the one safe place I could get where I knew someone, as I couldn't even get home by that stage as the line to Derby had flooded after my train went through. I'd got tickets booked on Virgin, Chiltern, and Southern I believe for that weekend and there wasn't any problems getting a refund.

 

[Polarbear]

I've also been delayed due to a suicide whilst using TPE & received a similar response.

In my case, I was at Huddersfield travelling towards York. However, my circumstances were somewhat different as the delay did not stretch much beyond 1 hour & my ticket wasn't the most expensive. That said, roughly the same excuse was used.

Buses were obtained, but by the time they'd arrived, the rail service had restarted, which was a credit to all involved.

I didn't pursue the matter further due to my relatively short delay & that I wouln't get much compensation given the price of my original ticket.

Given the length of the delay suffered by Northernrail2009, I would have expected some sort of recompense as a gesture of goodwill. To me, this is typical First, know the cost of everything & the value of nothing.

If it were me, I would write back to TPE & thank them for their letter. Re-emphasise the length of the delay you suffered & the fact you were travelling with your seven year old son. Say that whilst you appreciate that they are not directly responsible for the incident, you would have expected some recompense as a gesture of goodwill and to alleviate some of the additional costs you would have incurred, (additional food & drinks for instance).

Whilst they are correct in accordance with the national conditions of carriage, this in itself does not absolve the company from making goodwill gestures. In the current financial climate, a £20 voucher may prove a wise investment for FTPE for generating future business, whereas no compensation may equal no travel with that TOC in the future.

And I know what I would do if I didn't get a suitable reply.

 

[Ferret]

I have to disagree - what business with any hope of survival would dish out compensation to customers because of third party actions over which it had no control? The Conditions of Carriage are there for a reason and they are perfectly clear on this. Drawing an analogy - say you're travelling on the M6 and you get stuck in a queue for an hour because there has been a fatal accident ahead and the Traffic Police have closed the motorway to deal with it. Do you write to the government to claim some of your road tax back?

 

[John @ home]

are they right that im not due to have my ticket refunded?

If you're not happy with TPE's response, your next port of call is Passenger Focus http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/advice-and-complaints/

John

 

[87015]

I have to disagree - what business with any hope of survival would dish out compensation to customers because of third party actions over which it had no control? The Conditions of Carriage are there for a reason and they are perfectly clear on this. Drawing an analogy - say you're travelling on the M6 and you get stuck in a queue for an hour because there has been a fatal accident ahead and the Traffic Police have closed the motorway to deal with it. Do you write to the government to claim some of your road tax back?

Effectively a good faith payment if you want the passengers to come back another time.

 

[Ferret]

But how often do fatalities happen? There seem to be several each week to me. Based on that argument Mr R, you'd have thousands and thousands of pounds worth of goodwill gestures going out each week! In the current climate of falling revenues it just isn't realistic to expect FTPE or anyone else to go over and above their obligations under the CoC like that.

 

[yorkie]

... Do you write to the government to claim some of your road tax back?

I totally agree with your point, but road tax doesn't exist. Vehicle Excise Duty applies to most vehicles but many types are exempt - it's not the use of the road you are paying for but how polluting the vehicle is.

A better analogy would be travelling by bus - I'm not aware of any bus companies giving compensation - or even by taxi. Or if I was given a lift somewhere and had agreed to pay, say £15 toward costs, I wouldn't expect the driver to refund me on the basis that a road was blocked!

If you're not happy with TPE's response, your next port of call is Passenger Focus http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/advice-and-complaints/

John

But that would be a waste of time.

The fact is the railways are too generous as it is - try getting a refund off a taxi firm for a delay - and in cases like this they are not liable to give a refund.

 

[Metroland]

Rail passengers have by far the most rights, followed by air passengers - although most of the rights have only just come in, while compensation rights for rail passengers have been in since the mid-90s. Bus passengers have few, if any rights - although rights are under consideration currently by the EU.

However both Bus and Air are coming under Passenger focus shortly.

As a car driver, you have no rights whatsoever if you are stuck in a traffic jam for 3 hours because Ratbags haulage company has a truck in front jackknife.

No company should be paying compensation for things outside its control in my honest opinion, all that it would lead to is higher rail fares for the majority caused the actions of others or acts of God, which have nothing, whosoever, to do with the rail industry and make it less competitive.

I would also add any right minded person would not try and claim or expect compensation for something clearly outside another companies or individuals control, that would not constitute fairness in any legal or moral sense.

 

[metrocammel]

A better analogy would be travelling by bus - I'm not aware of any bus companies giving compensation -

Surprisingly, some bus companies do give compensation!

Someone I know, who lives between Chester & Crewe was due to get the last Arriva bus of the night back to his house, and the bus never turned up, meaning his wife had to pick him up. He wrote in to complain, and they sent a measly £3 of 'Arriva vouchers', with an aplogy letter. As I say, it's not much, but it does mean they do give vouchers out!

On the subject of suicides, although it's not in the NCoC, it's generally up to the clerks discretion. I don't think I've ever personally recieved vouchers for a sucide related delay, but I'm sure I've heard of people getting a refund when their delay has been down to 'naturual causes' or suicides.

 

[Tom B]

It strikes me that the OP was concerned about the poor response of First to the incident - e.g. replacement buses not turning up, poor information etc. Whilst, of course, First can't do anything about someone committing suicide, they are in control of their response to the incident.

Bus companies can - in theory - be pulled up and taken to court for not running to the advertised times. I've heard First in their bus guise come out with "a bus breaking down is outwith our control"!

 

[90019]

or acts of God

If you're religious, at what point does it stop becoming an act of god? And if you're not religious (like me ) are you exempt from this?

 

[metrocammel]

the rail industry and make it less competitive.

I would also add any right minded person would not try and claim or expect compensation for something clearly outside another companies or individuals control, that would not constitute fairness in any legal or moral sense.

But that is rather subjective. At the end of the day, one could argue that if a trespasser is killed, and the line blocked- NR should have put adequate measures in place for them not to trespass. Of course, I don't agree with that, but there's always someone to argue the toss.

Another situation is strong wind blowing knitting down. Yes, it could be argued that the weather was out of anybody's control, therefore no compensation is due. On the other hand, you could argue that it's a result of British Rail cost cutting and erecting lower- quality overhead line equipment in the 1980s, that's more susceptible to being blown down than the heavy-duty equipment of the 1960, it's the infrastructure's fault, and compensation should be granted. Discuss.....

 

[Metroland]

one could argue that if a trespasser is killed, and the line blocked- NR should have put adequate measures in place for them not to trespass. Of course, I don't agree with that, but there's always someone to argue the toss.

Maybe in a PC 'let's blame everyone else' world, but lack of personal responsibility and 'its all about me' culture, is really just buck passing and inability to see the bigger picture. The same people would complain about high fares in their simplistic world (these are the same people that claim they have all the answers and the solutions are simple) because of the cost of erecting large numbers of fences and educating people that lack basic common sense. As it stands we are one of the few countries that do erect fences anyway. If someone is hit at a level crossing because of a design failure that's a different matter, but as individuals and companies we cannot hold everyone's hand all the of time.

It strikes me on the very forum people moan about the cost of Health of Safety measures and 'silly PC ideas', or expensive fares, yet, they are the first to claim should anything go wrong, or blame 'inadequate measures'. They can't have it both ways. Someone will always argue something is inadequate or something is unfair, yet in a world of limited, finite resources, market conditions, public tolerances and real costs the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Another situation is strong wind blowing knitting down. Yes, it could be argued that the weather was out of anybody's control, therefore no compensation is due. On the other hand, you could argue that it's a result of British Rail cost cutting and erecting lower- quality overhead line equipment in the 1980s, that's more susceptible to being blown down than the heavy-duty equipment of the 1960, it's the infrastructure's fault, and compensation should be granted. Discuss.....

Possibly, but I guess its whether the wires came down within the standard design tolerances. In which case the TOCs would pursue NR in any case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It strikes me that the OP was concerned about the poor response of First to the incident - e.g. replacement buses not turning up, poor information etc.

Fair enough, but ever tried to hire 50 buses 'just like that' with no notice? Or provide information individually to thousands of passengers?

While I'm absolutely sure some incidents are handled badly, it strikes me what some folk expect is a little beyond what is possible sometimes, most people are reasonable and know this.

Sometimes even people working on the faults don't know exactly when they will be rectified so its impossible to give exact information, the same as when you or I are working on problems in your work/studies/personal life doesn't always know exactly when they will be solved. When lines are closed because of suicides, the police take over the scene, and even the head of Network Rail doesn't know when the line will be handed back. In the meantime, stock, crew, etc get stranded and out of place. Its a living nightmare trying to get it all up and working in the time everyone wants, including staff - who often just want to finish after a shift.

And I'm not for one minute saying First did all they could, because we don't have all the facts. So I would suggest we couldn't really make any judgement whether the case is fair or not in terms of response.

 

[alex57601]

I totally agree with your point, but road tax doesn't exist. Vehicle Excise Duty applies to most vehicles but many types are exempt - it's not the use of the road you are paying for but how polluting the vehicle is.

The amount of pollution a car emits dictates how much the owner pays in Vehicle Excise Duty (aka tax disc) if it was registered on or after 1st March 2001. Cars registered before that date are taxed by engine capacity (i.e. 1600cc aka 1.6).

Road tax (or car tax) is a common term used to refer to Vehicle Excise Duty.

 

[90019]

The amount of pollution a car emits dictates how much the owner pays in Vehicle Excise Duty (aka tax disc) if it was registered on or after 1st March 2001.

It's how much CO2 it emits. Other pollutants are not taken into account.

 

[alex57601]

It's how much CO2 it emits. Other pollutants are not taken into account.

That's what I said (apart from the CO2 bit).

 

[90019]

That's what I said (apart from the CO2 bit).

Just felt like being pedantic

 

[Shinkensgone]

Selfish people killing themselves and disrupting your life......Tell us how much you need Northernrail 2009 and we will have a whip round to stop you whinging...
Only kidding, "It pays for the shareholders Bubbly, gotta have a bit of Bubbly"