Greater Anglia Rolling Stock Updates

[F Great Eastern]

Moving away from seats for what will be, no doubt, a very brief pause, here is some contingency planning announced by GA.

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/contingency-plans-in-place-for-greater-anglia-s-main-line-fleet?image=25726

That's the first sensible thing I've heard in relation to this whole process!

Glad they are going down that road, it's very sensible decision.

 

[Martin222002]

If you've been reading my posts over the last few months you will realise that Abellio have been fobbing myself and rail user groups off for a while now and have spent months avoiding answering a straight forward question with multiple broken promises, they also have stated that the mock-up will be based on what the final product would be, that is what they said, not me.

I have been giving my input, I have been asking questions for the last few months, I have been trying to get information from Abellio, many people have been doing so but to date Abellio have continued to say things that they do not keep to, say they will get back to people and they never do.

According to what you are saying they will have this non representative mock-up and then there will be no mock-up of the final version, it will just be built based on feedback of a non representative mock-up and we will just have to wait to the real thing to have any idea of what it will be like in reality.

Abellio continue to avoid answering straight questions and simply haven't provided the kind of mock-up that they promised, so rather than ranting at me for attempting to hold them to account, why don't you ask Abellio to be transparent and to answer the question and to deliver and carry out what they say they will.

It's about time Abellio started walking the walk than just talking the talk.

I have been reading your post, and I can see that you haven't had a direct answer to your question particularly around seat pitch. So I can only assume either the people you have been asking at GA haven't got that information at their disposal or they are fobbing you off.

To follow on regarding that GA have said they would have a mock-up of the final product, I can only think either it's been a misunderstanding between this design mock-up, which it's purpose is to allow the interior design in terms of layout, specification and interior colour scheme to be finalised. So while it's not 100% representative it's probably 85-95% there.

This is different to mock-up's we have seen in the past, like the 700s for Thameslink, 80Xs for IEP and the 385s for ScotRail, as these decisions have been made much less openly. Anyone only has to remember what happened when they 700 mock-up was being shown off, people giving feedback and being told no this is the final design. So in my personal opinion I think it's great that GA are on the face of it appearing to be more open to feedback before the interior design has been finalised. Whenever this is as much the case GA is making out though given what you have said.

Where we are:
- Abellio have spent months ignoring questions on seat pitch
- Abellio have used every excuse under the sun to avoid saying it
- Abellio pointed us towards a mock-up which they claimed will be representative of your average airline seat
- Abellio have procured a mock-up that contains no standard airline seats that will be representative of seat pitch

This is a classic case of PR and marketing spin at work and is the next chapter in Abellio's vanity exercise when it comes to these new FLIRTS to absolve them of all blame in the future, you might want to be putty to this game, but as someone who will have to use these trains every day to work, I'm not buying it.

The question is, why have this "design freeze" and "consultation" when they were not already planning to?
It's obvious. By opening up a consultation without airline seats that are representative of what will be in the final product, they can minimise any negative comments because people will not see just how cramped these seats will be.

I firmly believe this mock-up is a box ticking exercise by showing a passengers a layout which is not going to be representative of a real train, allowing Abellio to use the excuse of "it wasn't brought up in the consultation" further down the line, despite the fact none of the airline style standard seats were available.

Abellio - My Challenge to you
I'm calling on you to close the mock-up and re-arrange it to be exactly like it will be in the plans that have been outlined by Stadler with the same seat pitch and layout that is included in this plan.

If you are really interested about a consultation you will allow people to sample the train how you have proposed it to be so they can see for sure how it will be like in your plans.

Giving someone a mock-up that is not representative of how the vast number of passengers will be traveling on your train is not a sufficient consultation and is yet another vanity exercise.

I'm going to be totally honest here but I think the mock-up is pretty much representative as you can get for the 12 car IC Flirts. You have to show all the features of a 12 car train within in this case a 2 car mock-up. Similar things were said about the 700 mock-up, as again a 2 car mock-up had to represent 8 and 12 car trains. As you are so interested in the seat pitches I've noted down the various ones list on diagram shown in the mock-up.

For first class they go as follows:

- 2000mm for the bay of 2 opposite the standard size toilet.
- 975mm for the single airline, possibly marked as priority seat.
- 1000mm for the pair of airlines, possibly marked as priority seat.
- 1900mm for the next bay of 2.
- 1900mm for the bay of 4.

For standard they go as follows:

- 1800mm for both bays of 4 before the universal toilet.
- 1050mm for the pair of airlines before the universal toilet.
- 825mm for the both pairs of airlines after the wheelchair space, possibly marked as priority seat.
- 1750mm for both bays of 4 before the buffet.
- 770mm for both pairs of airlines before the buffet.

So if this is anything to go on then I'd say there will be a variety of pitches throughout the train.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I have been reading your post, and I can see that you haven't had a direct answer to your question particularly around seat pitch. So I can only assume either the people you have been asking at GA haven't got that information at their disposal or they are fobbing you off.

To follow on regarding that GA have said they would have a mock-up of the final product, I can only think either it's been a misunderstanding between this design mock-up, which it's purpose is to allow the interior design in terms of layout, specification and interior colour scheme to be finalised. So while it's not 100% representative it's probably 85-95% there.

They have been fobbing us off without any doubt, because I have been through various levels of managers, the project team and people who you would think would know, if they do not know this information it doesn't paint a very positive picture about how this project is being manged if people involved in it cannot answer basic questions.

The simple fact is from what I have seen so far they have still shown nowhere near what a carriage would be like that would be representative of what we would get on your bog standard average carriage that most people would travel on will sit in.

Showing a carriage with a buffet etc, or half of a coach with a few raised platforms or extra guard areas or storage or suchlike is not allowing people to see how the vast majority of the passengers would sit or travel in on a day to day basis.

All I'm asking for details of your average standard class passenger coach, not one with a buffet, just your average standard class coach which lets face it, is what the vast majority of carriages are going to be in these trains, the buffet coach and ones with additional features in of course are going to have different seat pitches in a few seats to allow for these extra features.

However these seats overall are in the minority, since most people will be sitting in standard coaches with no buffets and purely seating accommodation and it has been very noticeable that despite having seen half a dozen movies now and dozens of photos, we are still no clearer to seeing what this accommodation will be like.

When the last mock ups were made and they showed many photos (before this lot) I asked if they could show me a side on view of airline seats, what I got from them was another bunch of images that showed pretty much every other single photo of any other seat apart from what I asked for.

Don't worry they say, when the mock-up carriage is there it will be a full carriage showing a few rows of airline seats together so you will be able to get a proper judgement then. I'm still waiting for them to deliver on that.

I'm going to be totally honest here but I think the mock-up is pretty much representative as you can get for the 12 car IC Flirts. You have to show all the features of a 12 car train within in this case a 2 car mock-up. Similar things were said about the 700 mock-up, as again a 2 car mock-up had to represent 8 and 12 car trains. As you are so interested in the seat pitches I've noted down the various ones list on diagram shown in the mock-up.

The thing is that they have avoided questions for months and then said that the mock-up would show something. Unfortunately the mock up does not show what they said it would. It's going on six months now and we still do not know what most of the seats in your average standard class carriage will be spaced like.

For standard they go as follows:

- 1800mm for both bays of 4 before the universal toilet.
- 1050mm for the pair of airlines before the universal toilet.
- 825mm for the both pairs of airlines after the wheelchair space, possibly marked as priority seat.
- 1750mm for both bays of 4 before the buffet.
- 770mm for both pairs of airlines before the buffet.

So if this is anything to go on then I'd say there will be a variety of pitches throughout the train.

Indeed, but the most common type of standard class seat is not represented in the mock-up at all since the vast majority of standard class seats will be nowhere near a buffet, a wheelchair space or a toilet at all and instead will be between other seats and that, as myself and rail user groups fear, is supposed to be where there is the supposed tightest seats and where most of us will be sitting.

I've heard a figure for those seats from someone in the industry but since I can't back it up and it's just gossip I can't prove, I'm not going to post it right now, but it's lower than all of those.

 

[Rick1984]

I can't play the videos.
How will the Bistro work with a split floor level?
I imagine this a bit of a design challenge. Is it in a raised section?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't play the videos.
How will the Bistro work with a split floor level?
I imagine this a bit of a design challenge. Is it in a raised section?

Yes, it is. There's a ramp up to it that runs through part of the seating area. If you look at the pictures you can see the raised/non-raised sections - the windows vary in height. By contrast the wheelchair space and big bog is in the low floor section to ensure completely level access (if they do station work to make platform heights consistent it will mean no assistance required for wheelchair boarding, which is a really excellent development).

The variation is, I think, about 6" or so, it isn't as pronounced as on "proper" low floor FLIRTs where it's rather more like a low floor bus, but probably more pronounced than the IEP. But the no-gap level boarding will more than "pay" for it, IMO.

 

[xc170]

Came to this thread to look into what the new Flirts will be like and 75% of this thread is some bloke with a chip on his shoulder banging on and on and on about seat pitch...

From the mock up, these look different to anything else on the network, but very good, comfort looks decent and it's got a real buffet, not a trolley, would these be the first units since the 390s to include a buffet?

For a 90 minute journey, I'd say these are pretty spot on.

 

[47802]

Came to this thread to look into what the new Flirts will be like and 75% of this thread is some bloke with a chip on his shoulder banging on and on and on about seat pitch...

From the mock up, these look different to anything else on the network, but very good, comfort looks decent and it's got a real buffet, not a trolley, would these be the first units since the 390s to include a buffet?

For a 90 minute journey, I'd say these are pretty spot on.

Indeed so and I think due to the variable floor height seat pitch which he keeps going on about may well very more than what you would get on the flat floor train we are used to.

 

[87015]

Hope they are put together better than usual Stadler flirt quality, 17 injured in a slow speed (think 10kmh quoted, but translations may vary) buffer stop collision with a private Czech one this week. Earlier version admittedly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hope they are put together better than usual Stadler flirt quality, 17 injured in a slow speed (think 10kmh quoted, but translations may vary) buffer stop collision with a private Czech one this week. Earlier version admittedly.

Injured because of bodywork collapse?

 

[CosherB]

Came to this thread to look into what the new Flirts will be like and 75% of this thread is some bloke with a chip on his shoulder banging on and on and on about seat pitch...

I wonder who that could be .....

 

[samuelmorris]

Economy class flights are 28" seat pitch - 770mm is a little over 30", and seems about right for other railway seating. Has anyone seen anything to determine that the seat pitch for regular airline is actually going to be different to the airline seats presented in the mockup at Norwich?
The units themselves look nice from what we can see in the mock up, but I do think the mockup is a bit half-arsed.
Given that it's meant to be a mock-up of the train as a whole and not just the seating, fake walls, no windows, and printed stickers for where things like door buttons should be is pretty cheap.

We did get an answer from Abellio when we quizzed them on why we hadn't had any responses to our queries, in fact the reply came within minutes of our chaser - I won't quote the whole email but I don't see any issues quoting the opening paragraph:

I do indeed have your list of questions from our meeting on 10th May and they were very good ones. The only reason you haven’t heard from me again with answers is that not all elements are yet clear or determined…it is a gradual process for what is a pretty sizeable programme and we are covering a lot of ground with stakeholders and customers, but you will receive answers in due course.

We pressed that the seating layout design for the Stadler units was claimed to be available during our meeting and that we had not yet received that - this follow-up has so far gone unanswered. If that changes I'll let you know.

The elephant in the room of the last few pages of this thread is that the unit that matters to the vast majority of GA customers doesn't have a mockup yet, which is the Class 720. In our meeting we were informed that there would be one produced at Derby - it has yet to be negotiated to show anything at Liverpool Street, as per the work of other TOCs.
Said Derby mockup is due in the summer, so we'll see what happens then.

 

[Mordac]

At least the complaints about seat pitch distract from the complaints about the mountain passengers will have to climb to manage the floor height differences--bit of a change from the IPEs.

 

[transportphoto]

They have been fobbing us off without any doubt, because I have been through various levels of managers, the project team and people who you would think would know, if they do not know this information it doesn't paint a very positive picture about how this project is being manged if people involved in it cannot answer basic questions.

It is, of course, worth remembering that as a private company Greater Anglia are fully within their rights to refuse to disclose such details - ultimately if they don't want to tell you, they don't have to. They shouldn't have to justify this either.

In any case, whilst they are seeking feedback, no amount of pestering is going to ensure that a certain change is made. Arguing with the people you are communicating with is going to put them off of helping with your enquiry.

 

[TheEdge]

Given that it's meant to be a mock-up of the train as a whole and not just the seating, fake walls, no windows, and printed stickers for where things like door buttons should be is pretty cheap.

Thats what a mock up is. A plywood body with an early representation of what it will look like. You'd probably find that if it was to be left open to all on the concourse at Liverpool Street it probably would be finished to a higher spec complete with windows but its not, its in a temporary tent at Crown Point where the main viewers are fleet, staff and union who do want the ability to move the "cheap" stickers and fittings so they are where they want them or can make suggestions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least the complaints about seat pitch distract from the complaints about the mountain passengers will have to climb to manage the floor height differences--bit of a change from the IPEs.

They won't, of course, have to climb it or mind any gap on boarding, which is the real "killer app" here.

 

[Wivenswold]

As the OP for this, could I politely request that a separate "GA Seating" thread is opened, it was my original intention that this would be a place for news and information that would be of interest to East Anglian enthusiasts, the greater enthusiast community and for people like me who enjoy the chops and changes of line and fleet renewals.

As mentioned above, most of us have an interest in things other than seating pitch and information that is of genuine interest such as the contingency fleet link, new timetables, infrastructure challenges and the like in getting lost in the discussion. I don't deny that all TOCs need to be monitored closely but the purpose of this thread was not meant as a soapbox for rants and anti-GA campaigning.

 

[eastdyke]

With the doors centrally positioned on the Flirts will there be any issue with the platform interface where the platform is on the outside of a curve?

EG at Marks Tey (Sudbury) platform 3? I seem to remember that 150's were ultimately not used on the Sudburys.

Found the reference now on railsigns.uk:

http://www.railsigns.uk/sect21page3/sect21page3.html

The Sudbury line platform at Marks Tey station is sharply curved. When Class 150 DMUs were introduced to the Sudbury line in 2001, four raised access platforms were fixed to the existing platform in positions corresponding to the train doors, to reduce the stepping distance for passengers. Because these platforms were not intended for use with Class 153 DMUs, separate stop markers were provided for each type of unit [21.63]. In the Up direction, the stopping position for both classes was the same and an additional stop marker for all trains was provided [21.64]. These markers were removed in 2010, when Class 150s were prohibited from working on the Sudbury line.

Is that the tightest platform edge radius that the Flirts will encounter on GA?

 

[Bletchleyite]

FLIRTs have automatic moving steps, so there will be no platform gap. The steps will extend to fill/cover it when the doors open.

 

[eastdyke]

FLIRTs have automatic moving steps, so there will be no platform gap. The steps will extend to fill/cover it when the doors open.

Thanks, just how far will the steps extend?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks, just how far will the steps extend?

I'm not sure off the top of my head what the limit is, but they completely close all platform gaps in Switzerland. So at least 8" or so. Probably a foot.

 

[eastdyke]

I'm not sure off the top of my head what the limit is, but they completely close all platform gaps in Switzerland. So at least 8" or so. Probably a foot.

Thanks again, the difference between 8" and a foot might just make 'the difference'!

Anybody know for sure?

 

[samuelmorris]

Thats what a mock up is. A plywood body with an early representation of what it will look like. You'd probably find that if it was to be left open to all on the concourse at Liverpool Street it probably would be finished to a higher spec complete with windows but its not, its in a temporary tent at Crown Point where the main viewers are fleet, staff and union who do want the ability to move the "cheap" stickers and fittings so they are where they want them or can make suggestions.

This is true, if the intention really is to leave it in situ and move stuff around then that's fine and makes sense. However, I am used to mockups being used more as 'this is our idea' and if it's changed, a new mockup is made, or more likely, the final product just looks different to the mockup.

 

[Mordac]

This news item gives 745 as the class allocation for the Stadler EMUs (the bi-modes had previously been mentioned to be 755s): https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2017/06/07-greater-anglia-unveils-the-future.html

Greater Anglia unveils the future with Stadler mock-up
NEW trains for Greater Anglia have been revealed, at least in principle, with the arrival of a mock-up from Swiss builder Stadler.

The interior combines the main features of 20 electric and 38 bi-mode trains which will replace all existing GA rolling stock now running in Norfolk, as well as most of Suffolk and parts of Cambridgeshire, dubbed FLIRT by Stadler (Fast Light Innovative Regional Train) and consisting of 378 vehicles. These will largely ride on articulated bogies within the sets, allowing low-floor connections between the cars.

Ten electric 12-car Class 745s will provide 750 seats and operate GA’s intercity services between Norwich, Ipswich and London. A further 10 trains of the same length will provide Stansted Express services.

The bi-mode Class 755s will offer three or four passenger vehicles, but will also include a short ‘power pack’ car to generate electricity when the trains are not under the wires. This vehicle will include a central aisle so that the cars on either side are not isolated. Greater Anglia said there are no plans to include batteries as a secondary back-up.

The 755s will be used on GA local and regional services in Norfolk and Suffolk on the lines from Norwich to Great Yarmouth, Lowestoft and Sheringham, plus the Felixstowe branch from Ipswich, the Sudbury branch from Marks Tey and the longer cross-country routes to Cambridge and Peterborough.

All the new trains will be equipped with power points and WiFi.

The Stadler fleets will be maintained at Crown Point in Norwich and also at a new depot to be known as Brantham, built on a site near Manningtree station.

The first sets are expected to be delivered next year and start entering service in 2019. The cost is put at £600 million, and is being financed by train leasing company Rock Rail.

A second, larger fleet of 665 Class 720 Aventra vehicles is being built for GA by Bombardier in Derby, worth £800 million and financed by Angel Trains. The 720s will be used on the West Anglia and Great Eastern commuter services to London Liverpool Street.

 

[dp21]

Thanks, just how far will the steps extend?

If the Merseyrail units are anything to go by, I believe the steps automatically stop 30/35mm away from the platform edge.

On a substantial curve, however, I'm not sure what it would be.

As has been mentioned before, anything is better than nothing!

 

[dk1]

The class 745 fleet will differ in seating provision.

Intercity - 672 standard 80 first class
Stansted - 748 standard only

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the Merseyrail units are anything to go by, I believe the steps automatically stop 30/35mm away from the platform edge.

Edited as I misread.

In CH they meet the platform edge so no gap at all, having a rubber bit at the end.

 

[xc170]

The class 745 fleet will differ in seating provision.

Intercity - 672 standard 80 first class
Stansted - 748 standard only

Don't know all that much about GA, but how busy/popular is Stansted Express, does it warrant a dedicated fleet or is it another Gatwick Express?

 

[dk1]

Don't know all that much about GA, but how busy/popular is Stansted Express, does it warrant a dedicated fleet or is it another Gatwick Express?

It does have its moments & unlike Gatwick Express it also serves some towns en-route. Business is significantly up from the airport in the last few years particularly since MAG took over running Stansted.

 

[dp21]

Edited as I misread.

In CH they meet the platform edge so no gap at all, having a rubber bit at the end.

I'll have a dig and see if I can find out the details of the GA ones; I can only comment on the Mersey fleet as I was at a presentation with the guy in charge of introducing them.

Will report back when I have more.

 

[dp21]

It does have its moments & unlike Gatwick Express it also serves some towns en-route. Business is significantly up from the airport in the last few years particularly since MAG took over running Stansted.

Increasingly, StEx services are being formed of 12 cars due to demand (as you rightly say, that has been increasing). As mentioned above, the service is heavily used by commuters from stations such as Tottenham Hale.

I believe that whilst fixed 12 car units lack the operational flexibility of 3x4 car units, it is casting one eye to the future as far as capacity is concerned. The units are very similar (and actually interchangeable with if necessary) to the Norwich units and therefore it just helps keep fleet variety to a minimum.

Also, apologies for not quite getting the hang of the multi quote thing!