1M46 Preston-Carlisle via S&C 04/06

[enrag2000]

Today owing to traincrew shortage, this service will terminate at Clitheroe and then there is a VSTP ECS 5M46 Clitheroe-Hellifield and a resumed 1T46 Hellifield-Carlisle.

Meanwhile a coach will convey passengers between Clitheroe and Hellifield where they can rejoin the train!

 

[Lrd]

Perhaps the guard doesn't sign Clitheroe - Hellifield?

 

[AndyW33]

Certainly sounds the most likely explanation. RTT shows the cancellation at Clitheroe as due to a planning error, and the whole operation is running late, due to a late start from Preston.

 

[yorksrob]

It's still better than bussing them all the way from Preston to Carlisle.

I'm sure such hiccups will be rarer once the planners get more used to diversions.

 

[Mag_seven]

Today owing to traincrew shortage, this service will terminate at Clitheroe and then there is a VSTP ECS 5M46 Clitheroe-Hellifield and a resumed 1T46 Hellifield-Carlisle.

Meanwhile a coach will convey passengers between Clitheroe and Hellifield where they can rejoin the train!

And of course the bus will be safer than than the train because it will have two safety critical members of staff on it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's still better than bussing them all the way from Preston to Carlisle.

I'm sure such hiccups will be rarer once the planners get more used to diversions.

1T46/1M46 isn't a diversion, it's the Sunday DalesRail service. A bus from Preston to Carlisle wouldn't be much use, most custom is to/from the intermediate stations.

 

[PHILIPE]

1T46/1M46 isn't a diversion, it's the Sunday DalesRail service. A bus from Preston to Carlisle wouldn't be much use, most custom is to/from the intermediate stations.

And to enjoy the scenery of the S & C

 

[AndrewE]

And the travelling public (and the Treasury) are expected to put their faith in the industry? Who is responsible for providing traincrew? the Albanians? A martian over-lord? Maybe the people pretending to run the trains need to wake up to the responsibilities that go with running a utility... Sorry, I forgot, the directors are only responsible to their shareholders, of course!

Re-arrange these words to make a well-known phrase:
Brewery, ****-up, arrange, couldn't!

p.s. this post was nearly lost because of the cr*p service by the BT internet network, which drops out all the time. No reduction in contract price for failure to deliver 100% availability of course - any suggestions for something like delay repay?

 

[causton]

And the travelling public (and the Treasury) are expected to put their faith in the industry? Who is responsible for providing traincrew? the Albanians? A martian over-lord? Maybe the people pretending to run the trains need to wake up to the responsibilities that go with running a utility... Sorry, I forgot, the directors are only responsible to their shareholders, of course!

Good luck with that.

It is very well known that two of the four lines on the West Coast Main Line are shut almost every evening, either the two slow lines or the two fast lines. Yet Southern crews seemingly do not sign the fast lines, so there is a 50% chance of their late night/weekend services being cancelled at little to no notice. As happened this weekend...

 

[ashworth]

Today owing to traincrew shortage, this service will terminate at Clitheroe and then there is a VSTP ECS 5M46 Clitheroe-Hellifield and a resumed 1T46 Hellifield-Carlisle.

Meanwhile a coach will convey passengers between Clitheroe and Hellifield where they can rejoin the train!

I caught the return working at 1757 from Carlisle which was an almost empty 3 carriage 158. I heard the full story from a few of those who had eventually made the journey in the morning. Apparently this train is usually very busy but very few made the outward journey yesterday to use this return service.

Apparently, because there was no guard available yesterday morning who signed for Clitheroe to Hellifield, everyone had to get off at Clitheroe and travel by coach to Hellifield whilst the train ran that part of the journey empty! Guess what happened? With approx 100 passengers at Clitheroe no coaches arrived! An hour and a half later coaches arrived all the way from Bolton but by then all but a handful of passengers had gone home or being ramblers gone on alternative walks from Clitheroe. Those few who did wait, on arrival at Hellifield found of course that the train hadn't waited what would have been over 2 hours. Fortunately they didn't have to wait too long for a Leeds to Carlisle train.

Whatever the rules and regulations may be, try explaining to passengers who were left stranded at Clitheroe why they had to get off the train at Clitheroe and the train was still able to continue these few miles empty. I hear that there are only about half a dozen guards who still are able to work between Clitheroe and Hellifield. All of the passengers are regulars from walking groups who do the trip every week and those guards have become good friends over the years.

 

[Condor7]

Why does a guard have to sign for a certain section of line?
I can understand why a driver would have to, but confused why a guard has to!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why does a guard have to sign for a certain section of line?
I can understand why a driver would have to, but confused why a guard has to!

Because the Guard is in charge of the safety of the train and may have to e.g. walk to a signalbox for assistance, or protect the train etc - they need to know where they are.

 

[Condor7]

Because the Guard is in charge of the safety of the train and may have to e.g. walk to a signalbox for assistance, or protect the train etc - they need to know where they are.

Couldn't the driver tell him, or her?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Because the Guard is in charge of the safety of the train and may have to e.g. walk to a signalbox for assistance, or protect the train etc - they need to know where they are.

Okay fair enough but can't they just use their phone?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Couldn't the driver tell him, or her?

And if the driver is incapacitated? Telling Control 'The driver is unresponsive, we have stopped a quarter of a mile beyond [level crossing]' is much more useful than 'The driver is unresponsive, we passed Clitheroe about five minutes ago'.

 

[bb21]

And the travelling public (and the Treasury) are expected to put their faith in the industry? Who is responsible for providing traincrew? the Albanians? A martian over-lord? Maybe the people pretending to run the trains need to wake up to the responsibilities that go with running a utility... Sorry, I forgot, the directors are only responsible to their shareholders, of course!

Re-arrange these words to make a well-known phrase:
Brewery, ****-up, arrange, couldn't!

p.s. this post was nearly lost because of the cr*p service by the BT internet network, which drops out all the time. No reduction in contract price for failure to deliver 100% availability of course - any suggestions for something like delay repay?

Feeling better now that you have got it off your chest?

Maybe now you can tell us what enraged you so much for a meaningful discussion to take place? I can see several things which may have been the cause, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, a train got cancelled once in a while. The passengers got where they were going or chose not to. It's not really news to the extent AndrewE thinks, really.

 

[Condor7]

And if the driver is incapacitated? Telling Control 'The driver is unresponsive, we have stopped a quarter of a mile beyond [level crossing]' is much more useful than 'The driver is unresponsive, we passed Clitheroe about five minutes ago'.

Yes I see that, but in that event, could he not get a location from his phone?

What I am struggling with, (as a member of the public and not a health and safety expert), is this.......

I would prefer to take a route known by the driver but not the guard, with the only risk being not knowing exactly where we were if the train stopped and the driver was not able to help, rather than the risks involved unloading a train load of passengers putting them on coach's and then driving to, in this case Hellifield, when we are told road travel is far more dangerous than rail travel, to then unload the coach and reload the train with passengers.

I know what risk I would prefer to take!

 

[Lrd]

Rail travel being more safer than road travel must have something to do with the fact that there are multiple fully trained staff looking after one train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rail travel being more safer than road travel must have something to do with the fact that there are multiple fully trained staff looking after one train?

Without turning this into a DOO debate per-se, rail is still safer than road with only a driver on board. Safer still with two staff, of course.

 

[AndrewE]

Feeling better now that you have got it off your chest?

Maybe now you can tell us what enraged you so much for a meaningful discussion to take place? I can see several things which may have been the cause, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

I do feel better thanks, and I'll take up your invitation and expand a bit... and hope to get it posted before it times out or my BT server cuts the line on me again

Lots of people work very hard on the railway in poor conditions with almost no public recognition (think relaying tracks in tunnels) and do very variable unsocial hours (operating staff and infrastructure again) so the the railway can run. Pay hasn't been great historically but it used to be a relatively secure job.

Those people all depend for their continued employment on the public wanting to travel by rail (or maybe buying tickets because some have no real choice.)

The public generally go "by train" or by another mode of transport: most do have a choice of some sort and if they are to choose to go by train (not by one franchise or another, note) they have to believe that they will get what they paid for. The shambles described here is a classic example of the current situation where the "bottom line" of one relatively small business unit jeopardises all the victims' faith in rail and ensures that they won't risk having a day out ruined by trusting rail again.

The front-line staff are made to look fools, but can only say "It wasn't my plan," and in similar but rougher circumstances are at risk of assault. Many are embarrassed by letting the punters down.

All the staff who keep the railway running have their futures threatened by this sort of mismanagement. Front-line staff cannot influence how many of them there are (and whether spare traincrew are ever kept available), or how much route knowledge is maintained for known deliverables. The management (with a financial remit) can cut corners and achieve their objectives in the short term while letting all the rest of us down, staff and punters alike.

At least if you had a bad service from BR you could lobby your MP and (in theory) they could either bring pressure to bear to improve things locally or they could be voted out if they didn't seem to care. What chance of any lobbying producing an improvement nowadays?

 

[AndrewE]

So, a train got cancelled once in a while. The passengers got where they were going or chose not to. It's not really news to the extent AndrewE thinks, really.

Except that they didn't get there, so having planned their day out (which takes a lot more effort if you are going out by public transport than just jumping into the car) it was ruined for many of them. That's the whole point.

Would you have been happy waiting an hour and a half for a replacement bus on what should have been a through journey, when the train itself went through? and the train hadn't waited as you were promised? Imagine spending several hours at Hellifield instead of having a walk from a S&C station!

That "once in a while" will probably put them off ever trying it again, and they will be telling their friends about it too. 90% of dissatisfied customers tell others about it, barely 1% of satisfied customers do.

 

[bb21]

It does seem a little daft to an average punter that they have to be detrained, and then picked up down the line, despite the training running through anyway.

 

[randyrippley]

Yes I see that, but in that event, could he not get a location from his phone?

Have you ever traveled on that route? Exactly what phone service are you thinking of? Reception is poor to nil along virtually the whole route north of Clitheroe. You've got Bowland, the Yorkshire Dales / Ribble Valley, and then Dentdale and the Howgills. Not many phone masts....

 

[ashworth]

Except that they didn't get there, so having planned their day out (which takes a lot more effort if you are going out by public transport than just jumping into the car) it was ruined for many of them. That's the whole point.

Would you have been happy waiting an hour and a half for a replacement bus on what should have been a through journey, when the train itself went through? and the train hadn't waited as you were promised? Imagine spending several hours at Hellifield instead of having a walk from a S&C station!

That "once in a while" will probably put them off ever trying it again, and they will be telling their friends about it too. 90% of dissatisfied customers tell others about it, barely 1% of satisfied customers do.

The fact that they didn't get there is very much the case!
I didn't quite understand all of the problems when I was listening on the return journey to the handful of passengers who had got through to Carlisle.
It's all beginning to make sense now that I have looked again at the timetable.

When they finally got to Hellifield an hour and a half late there wasn't any train for them because the next train to Carlisle was the limited stop train that only calls at Settle, Kirkby Stephen and Appleby. That train did make an additional stop at Hellifield but was of little use to anyone who had planned to get off at one of the smaller stations enroute to go walking! Apparently a coach continued through certainly as far as Horton in Ribblesdale and Ribblehead but I don't know whether it went any further. Again try telling the passengers why the limited stop train couldn't have called at some of those stations. I suppose at least it called at Hellifield.

 

[RichmondCommu]

When they finally got to Hellifield an hour and a half late there wasn't any train for them because the next train to Carlisle was the limited stop train that only calls at Settle, Kirkby Stephen and Appleby. That train did make an additional stop at Hellifield but was of little use to anyone who had planned to get off at one of the smaller stations enroute to go walking! Apparently a coach continued through certainly as far as Horton in Ribblesdale and Ribblehead but I don't know whether it went any further. Again try telling the passengers why the limited stop train couldn't have called at some of those stations. I suppose at least it called at Hellifield.

Assuming that the coach did get as far as Horton and Ribblehead in all fairness they are the two main destinations for walkers. However I'm certain that the train would have been quicker than the coach in which case walkers had less time on the fells. Incidentally what was the weather like that day?

 

[ashworth]

It was a beautiful clear sunny day. Unlike the torrential rain and gales which followed the following 2 days!

 

[RichmondCommu]

It was a beautiful clear sunny day. Unlike the torrential rain and gales which followed the following 2 days!

Oh dear. A beautiful day in the high fells wasted.

 

[Condor7]

Have you ever traveled on that route? Exactly what phone service are you thinking of? Reception is poor to nil along virtually the whole route north of Clitheroe. You've got Bowland, the Yorkshire Dales / Ribble Valley, and then Dentdale and the Howgills. Not many phone masts....

It was said previously that a guard has to be signed on a route to enable the train to run with passengers, so that if the driver was unconscious the guard can report their exact location. Well how can he do that if there is no mobile signal, surely the same problem is there whether the guard is signed on or not.

I still stand by my previous comment regarding the hazards of unloading passengers, travelling by road, loading passengers, against a situation where a guard is unfamiliar with a route.

 

[AlterEgo]

Rail travel being more safer than road travel must have something to do with the fact that there are multiple fully trained staff looking after one train?

No, not at all.

It's a controlled system with billions spent on infrastructure, unlike the roads, which are open to everyone and which are controlled only by relatively primitively means.

Let's not have the DOO debate again.