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UK Railways, better now than they have ever been!

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87015

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Totally and utterly wrong again.

Virgin spent a lot of money refurbishing the interiors of their Mk3s - as these pictures show:

It's why John Farrow bought them for the Blue Pullman and Cargo D for their fleet.

The Mk 2 fleet was withdrawn as long ago as 2004 (nearly 5 years ago):

And they were only used on the Euston - Wolves corridor. Many present WCML passengers will never have travelled on them, so to try and use them as an excuse is grasping even more desperately at straws. :roll:

The interiors weren't bad either

You appear to have forgotten the diagrammed Mk2 workings to Liverpool and Carlisle on a daily basis. It was hardly a rare event for them to reach Manchester and Glasgow aswell, especially the latter (which had a booked weekend Mk2 working.) Nearly everyone who used VWC anywhere near regularly would have experienced Mk2 stock at one time or another.

They might have had a reasonable refresh in '97-98 but they were in a complete mess mechanically by around 2001, lack of maintenance perhaps, but either way the fault sheet for a set often ran to about three pages. Aircon was a joke in the summer, yet other operators managed to operate Mk2/Mk3 stock with far more cool coaches - even Clown Point!
 
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90019

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Passengers on the WCML are used to mk2 / mk3 which Virgin did very little work on. Hence the Pendo's are an improvement on what they are used to.

You're lost me here. You say that the railways aren't as good as they used to be, but say that Pendos are an improvement on the Mk2s they had :?
Which would mean that they are better than they used to be.
Or are Pendos worse than badly maintained Mk2s now?
 

Failed Unit

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Actually, I think you'll find that's a significant improvement in services!;)
:lol: I wish we did have 6 trains per hour, one train every 2 hours would be a dream.


You're lost me here. You say that the railways aren't as good as they used to be, but say that Pendos are an improvement on the Mk2s they had :?
Which would mean that they are better than they used to be.
Or are Pendos worse than badly maintained Mk2s now?

A Pendo is an improvement on a badly maintained mk2 which is what I meant. Whether a pendo is an improvement on a well maintained and well refurbished mk2 is open to debate. I would be interested as you are in Scotland if you have had any views if people prefer the mk2's over the 170's on the single fife circle train. I guess they like the extra seats, but may not be as keen about the longer dwell times.
 

90019

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I would be interested as you are in Scotland if you have had any views if people prefer the mk2's over the 170's on the single fife circle train. I guess they like the extra seats, but may not be as keen about the longer dwell times.

Havent the foggiest, Fife's the wrong side of the Forth for me :p

Although I'm probably going to go and get some photos of the fife cirle 67s and mk2s at some point.
 

Failed Unit

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With Stoke on Trent it hardly makes a difference as you have to pull into Derby for a few minutes and the Trains from Derby to Nottingham are quite frequent so they have hardly lost out it is basically trying to save money by sending the unit to Cardiff rather than stoke which would be almost pointless.

Depends how you look at it, they minimum connection time should be 10 minutes, trains reversed in 3 so that is 7 minutes slower for a start. If you are travelling from Nottingham and the train is late, you miss the connection and need to wait for another hour for the next train - which again isn't good. You don't want to take the risk and leave Nottingham earlier and have a long wait. Direct trains are always better than connecting ones, no matter how frequent the service is.

Look at Nottingham services, BR used to run one to Birmingham and one to Crewe, in the better times Nottingham had 3 trains per hour to Birmingham, 2 via Derby and 1 via Leicester as well as the Crewe service. What would be possible now and make a lot of people happy is 2 trains per hour to Birmingham from Nottingham (one via Leicester and the other via Derby) and one train per hour to Crewe. The Lincoln - Leicester - Birmingham service was destroyed by DaFT as it didn't fit into their new franchise model for EMT / LM. No-one wanted it split but DaFT knows best. I know a lot of people that now drive because it has gone. Same reason as the Crewe example, travelling to Birmingham you only have to wait 30 minutes for the next train should you miss it, travelling to Lincoln you need to wait 60 if you miss a connection at Nottingham. If you go by car the average journey time is about the same, the price of petrol is cheaper (you have already paid the fixed costs anyway - yes I know you are close to your next service set of tyres etc but people don't factor this in), most importantly you are in the same warm place from start to finish, no sitting on a cold platform or hauling baggage around a station.
 

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I see it is all so clear to me now:

Oh dear, a predictable response which singularly fails to see the wood for the trees.

Once again we have the idea expressed that unless everything improves – nothing has improved. It’s an idea that holds no water with any realist.
It’s also worthy of note the way that people will produce all sorts of spurious assertions without the slightest shred of evidence (and totally fail to produce it when challenged – hence no end of BR punctuality figures have ever materialised) – yet at the same time they will try and mealy-mouth the excellent research done by Passenger Focus – because it shows their views to be without substance.

Passenger Focus research is extremely well respected across the rail industry (and beyond). It’s the most authorative source of information on passenger’s views and trends. But it’s not the only research the railways relay on. All the TOCs commission their own research too (as does the DfT). There’s now a far far greater understanding of passenger needs and trends than there has ever been.

But sometimes this conflicts with enthusiasts ‘common knowledge’ or own personal experiences. Sadly, there’s a chauvinistic attitude on display sometimes which is to say – obviously all that research is wrong! – I’m not out of step with everybody else – they’re out of step with me!
Of course, the pragmatist will say ‘hmm, that’s interesting, maybe I’m missing something and in fact, all that research is right?’

Another blind side on display here is to ignore the majority view. Any reasonable person would accept the fact that, as the old saying goes) ‘you can’t please all of the people all of the time’ So, the pragmatic thing to do is try and please the majority.

This is exactly what the railways have been trying to do.
Complaints have been made here that the railways have got worse because some regional services have allegedly got worse (in in some cases they genuinely have).

So let’s look at the bigger picture. It’s an inconvertible truth that the majority of passenger journeys begin and end in London (70% in fact). Bearing this in mind it’s hardly surprising that timetable like the new WCML one favours trips to and from the capital rather than town to town. DfT rather than Virgin specified the timetable. Virgin may have done things differently but part of the DfT logic is that when you’ve spent all that money on modernising the line you have to be able to justify it with higher speeds. I have some sympathy with that view. And as others have pointed out, new LM services have been introduced to replace some of the town to town journeys which would have been made by Virgin before.

Another complaint is that Cross-country services have been cut back. But there’s no analysis of why this might be.

So let’s provide some.

Services like Liverpool – Stansted and Aberdeen-Penzance are operating nightmares. They pass through so many choke points that timekeeping is a real hostage to fortune. And how many people actually travel end to end on these trains? The reality is very few. There’s been a lot of research into XC by the DfT which established that the average length of journey on XC was 81 miles. Here’s the detail:

“There were around 20 million journeys on Virgin Cross Country (VXC) during 2005/6. The average journey was 81 miles, with c.50% of journeys at < 50 miles (c. 9.8 million passengers), c. 20% between 50-100 miles (c. 4.2 million passengers) and 20% of journey between 100-200 miles (c. 4 million passengers). Around 10% of the journeys are over 200 miles. Over the last 5 years, average journey length has decreased by 20 miles, suggesting there are fewer very long distance journeys with more short to
medium distance travellers.”

(Source: ) http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/news-and-publications/document-search/document.asp?dsid=863

So, why run long distance cross country services where passengers change repeatedly anyway and where delays are almost inevitable?
Perhaps instead of saying ‘but we’ve always done this’ we should be willing to learn from others.

Japanese railways are amongst the most punctual in the world. The reason for this is that they run point to point. They wouldn’t dream of running long rambling services because of the potential for late running. Instead they make sure connections work. This is something we’re finally learning. (despite what is alleged about connections never being held). Sadly there’s sometimes chauvinism from UK enthusiast who seem to think that because we invented the railways we have nothing to learn from anyone else.

Now, on to timekeeping and the complaint that some services have been slowed down, it’s absolutely true.

But here’s why. For years passengers have set out their top ten priorities for the railway they want. Punctuality and reliability are always in the top five (IIRC they are the top two). So, why run a timetable which isn’t reliable, but is based on one that’s been run for years?

SWT demonstrated how to do it. They redrew their timetable. It meant that some journeys took a few minutes longer, but the timetable was robust, reliable and deliverable. And passengers loved it. They didn’t care that it was a few minutes slower (after all, what’s the point of a faster time that you can’t deliver reliably).

Now, if these sort of initiative weren’t to passengers liking (along with the new trains, station improvements, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all) you would expect this to show in the Passenger Focus surveys. Now remember that they survey 10s of thousands of people every time (four times a year) – and they’re not the same people each time. The data goes back 11 years and allows a trend to be seen. Of course there’s individual blips (cock-ups on the WCML and leaf-fall or snow are great examples) but the statistical trend is firmly in one direction: UP.

Which is what seems to get the goat of some who want to believe that nothing is better, hence some of the dodgy assumptions and unwillingness to believe the evidence.

Of course, no-one (least of all me) is claiming that everything in the garden is rosy. Fares are certainly an issue and one of the biggest causes for complaint. But that’s an issue beyond the railways. It’s a political one. Everyone wants better railways, more trains, more investment and more reliability. But no-one wants to pay for it – either through taxes or the farebox. But someone has to...

Other EU countries citizens are more pragmatic and recognise this conundrum, so don’t complain about paying higher taxes and getting cheaper rail fares in return. Sadly, in this country, we want our cake and eat it.
I see its claimed that the railways can’t be doing well because “46% that dared in the Autumn 2008 beloved passenger focus survey to say they felt that their (sic) ticket wasn't value for money” It’s a classic negative quote of the glass half empty kind, because anyone can instantly spot that it means that 54% didn’t think the value for money was bad. In other words, the real majority!

It’s also another stunning example of a sound bite. That PF survey is an in depth analysis of passenger feeling. To try and reduce it to sound bites like that is not only silly; it really insults people’s intelligence. I suspect most people on here appreciate that nothing is that simple.

Sadly, some want to reduce what goes on in what is a remarkably complex industry (and all the social and political issues involved) into such black and white argument.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A Pendo is an improvement on a badly maintained mk2 which is what I meant. Whether a pendo is an improvement on a well maintained and well refurbished mk2 is open to debate. I would be interested as you are in Scotland if you have had any views if people prefer the mk2's over the 170's on the single fife circle train. I guess they like the extra seats, but may not be as keen about the longer dwell times.

Open to debate?

Only in your mind...

WC passengers have already voiced their opinions (yes, I know you can't bear that thought because the view expressed contradicts yours :D).

Let's look at some of the reasons why.

Mk2s were a bit crap really (ask anyone who has had to look after them now that they're old). They're far noisier than a Pendolino, with far less reliable a/c and they're poorer riding. They're also slower and less reliable due to being loco hauled (MPC figures).

So try asking that question of passengers: Would you prefer an older, slower more noisy train with a poorer ride that is less relaible - or would you prefer a Pendolino?

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to work out what the reply would be...
 
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Failed Unit

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So try asking that question of passengers: Would you prefer an older, slower more noisy train with a poorer ride that is less relaible - or would you prefer a Pendolino?

How about would you prefer a nice comfortable mk4 set or a pendo I wonder what the answer would be. Shame someone has never asked the question. BTW the mk4 are also more reliable than the pendo's according to the modern railways survey published every January. <D
 

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How about would you prefer a nice comfortable mk4 set or a pendo I wonder what the answer would be. Shame someone has never asked the question. BTW the mk4 are also more reliable than the pendo's according to the modern railways survey published every January. <D

It's a nonsense question. The Mk4s would never be used on the WCML. But you could try asking them if they want a slower train service back (as that is what would happen if they could be).

For it to make sense, any comparison has to be realistic. As there is no chance in hell of Mk4s operating on the WCML it's an utterly pointless question. You might as well ask WC pax if they'd prefer TGVs to Pendolinos.

But an answer can be worked out from asking exactly the same questions about comfort of existing fleets to ECML and WCML pax.

Pendos's came out on top.

As for the Mk4s being the 'most reliable', NXEC were worthy winners. But to put that in perspective - the Pendolino's won exactly the same award back in 2006:

http://www.virgintrainsmediaroom.com/index.cfm?articleid=970
 
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devon_metro

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Great Western - MISTAKE! FGW are introducing more HSTs to displace the Adelantes.

Huh? GW never got rid of any HSTs, the 180s were introduced in order to make Paddington - Cardiff half hourly. More HSTs were bought in as passenger numbers soured and the same applies now. So GW never made any mistakes related to HSTs as far as I can see :?
 

CosherB

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People tend to think that the railways were always nationalised, then split up under privatisation. In fact, they were always privatised until nationalised after WW2 - privatisation is just restoring the norm.

The private railways were knackered in WW1 and again in WW2. They were so run down and un-maintained after WW2 that the government could not afford to compensate the private companies to put the railways back where they were before the wars... so they nationalised them.

BR was rubbish. They were underfunded, and they spent their time cutting costs to fit the lack of money from government APT was chucked away, and the Italians bought it and now sell it to us in the (inferior) form of Pendelino. Junctions were taken out, lines singled... it was bad news. And there was a 'jobsworth' attitude among many customer-facing staff.

Privatisation brough money to the railways that would never otherwise have happened. New trains, new infrastructure, putting back what BR had stripped out. And a refreshing attitude change (mostly.. not always) from staff.

Privatisation was good thing if onl because it eneabled the government to pump lots of money in without being accused of 'subsidising' the railways. But, under Brown, that is changing. Money is being cut, and we may end up back where we were.

CS
 

Failed Unit

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You might as well ask WC pax if they'd prefer TGVs to Pendolinos.
You could do that, people have their opinions and you may find the TGV may win.
But an answer can be worked out from asking exactly the same questions about comfort of existing fleets to ECML and WCML pax.

Pendos's came out on top.
You keep saying this but you can't prove it, just like I can't prove it the other way as no-one has asked the direct question. So what if passengers on the WCML can have them on WCML services, they can still use them and have an opinion on them. People may state in public that they prefer the trains on the Glasgow - Newcastle service over the ones on the ones on the Glasgow to Carlisle route. They give good reason like they prefer the feel of the coach and the larger windows on the mk4. The like the fact the mk4 isn't as noisy as they don't have constant beeping going on etc. Passenger focus survey is as I stated earlier like saying apples taste better than pears just because 80% of people like the taste of apples but only 74% like the takes of pears!

As for the Mk4s being the 'most reliable', NXEC were worthy winners. But to put that in perspective - the Pendolino's won exactly the same award back in 2006:

http://www.virgintrainsmediaroom.com/index.cfm?articleid=970
No that press release shows they were the most improved fleet - not the most reliable fleet - big difference. The mk4's have been the most reliable IC fleet ever since the survey first began. Maybe GC will win the most improved fleet next year - they started from a low baseline afterall. I think you will find in 2005 the pendo's were the least reliable IC fleet, they were certainly below the GNER IC125's.

Back to the point of the thread. UK railways been better now then they have ever been. This is a matter of opinion so I guess we can't have a right or wrong answer. I have admitted areas have improved such as the IC franchises, you have admitted some areas have got worse such as the price of walk on tickets and regional railways services. The areas I use are worse so I can't agree they are better than they have ever been.

The timekeeping debate, you have already made up you mind that as we have more services on the network it doesn't matter if timekeeping was better in the past. For the record I don't agree with PPM anyway as it is currently record, for me it should be recorded at every station, a train recorded on-time in London (ex-Edinburgh) is not going to make someone who missed their connection in York because it was 15 minutes late when it passed through York, but due to timetable padding it arrived 9 down in London hence on time. We have already said PPM is also the a major problem on rural lines, again why run an empty train on time when all its passengers are stuck at the mainline station.

Finally someone could come on who remember in 1923 (for example) that you could set your watch by GWR trains, that every blade of grass had a station etc, etc so railways were better then. You can't really argue either way as figures would again be comparing apples with pears. Just like you are saying that comparing 1996 with 2009 is comparing apples with pears as the number of trains on the network was lower in 2009.
 

Snapper

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No that press release shows they were the most improved fleet - not the most reliable fleet - big difference. The mk4's have been the most reliable IC fleet ever since the survey first began. Maybe GC will win the most improved fleet next year - they started from a low baseline afterall. I think you will find in 2005 the pendo's were the least reliable IC fleet, they were certainly below the GNER IC125's.

Really?

Perhaps you should have read NXECs press release:

http://www.nationalexpressgroup.com/nx1/media/news/sub_news/pr2008/2008-12-04/

"The company won two coveted “Golden Spanner” awards, in an annual contest promoted jointly by trade and technical magazine Modern Railways and rail industry representative body, the Railway Forum.

"In the inter city sector, National Express East Coast’s electric trains emerged as the most reliable – and the most improved.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The timekeeping debate, you have already made up you mind that as we have more services on the network it doesn't matter if timekeeping was better in the past. For the record I don't agree with PPM anyway as it is currently record, for me it should be recorded at every station, a train recorded on-time in London (ex-Edinburgh) is not going to make someone who missed their connection in York because it was 15 minutes late when it passed through York, but due to timetable padding it arrived 9 down in London hence on time. We have already said PPM is also the a major problem on rural lines, again why run an empty train on time when all its passengers are stuck at the mainline station.

You have repeatedly been asked to provide evidence of this assertion that timekeeping was better in the past. You have singularly failed to do so. Now you are trying to wheedle out of it again by obfuscating about the merits of PPM.

As for 'PPM being a major problem on rural lines' - as usual I don't see the slightest shred of evidence offered
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You keep saying this but you can't prove it, just like I can't prove it the other way as no-one has asked the direct question. So what if passengers on the WCML can have them on WCML services, they can still use them and have an opinion on them. People may state in public that they prefer the trains on the Glasgow - Newcastle service over the ones on the ones on the Glasgow to Carlisle route. They give good reason like they prefer the feel of the coach and the larger windows on the mk4. The like the fact the mk4 isn't as noisy as they don't have constant beeping going on etc. Passenger focus survey is as I stated earlier like saying apples taste better than pears just because 80% of people like the taste of apples but only 74% like the takes of pears!

You really do seem to have trouble grasping the concept of valid comparisons! :lol:

It's not a competition between Pendolinos's and Mk4s because they are used on different routes and always will be.

The only sensible and worthwhile comparison is between old and new trains on the same route. The PF research allows this as the VWC pax satisfaction ratings can be seen to have increased on specific issues like the comfort of the seating area.

It's completely and utterly pointless to say to passengers would you prefer a Pendolino to a TGV as they can't have one - even if that was what they preferred. It's not a choice that is on offer! I suspect most members of this board can understand this point. Only you seem to have a problem with it! :lol:

However, it is possible to draw inferences between WC and EC passenger satisfaction with their differing stock by asking them exactly the same question (which is what the PF survey does).

You insist that pax prefer the Mk4s Yet the PF survey shows in black and white that when both sets of passengers are asked the same question (comfort of the seating area). The WC pax give higher marks than EC passengers! This blows a rather large hole in your assertion, as the figures should be the other was around if it were true.

But we shouldn't be surprised as you've been caught making dodgy assertions a number of times (who could forget the assertion that 'PF stats show that the EC has always come out on top' when they most certainly don't!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Finally someone could come on who remember in 1923 (for example) that you could set your watch by GWR trains, that every blade of grass had a station etc, etc so railways were better then. You can't really argue either way as figures would again be comparing apples with pears. Just like you are saying that comparing 1996 with 2009 is comparing apples with pears as the number of trains on the network was lower in 2009.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that timekeeping is going to be a more difficult proposition on a busier railway. Just like driving in rush hour is more likely to cause you to be late! It's a fairly simple concept to grasp. References to the GWR are a pointless attempt to muddy the water.

Any reasonable person would also recognise that achieving the same (or greater PPM) on a railway when you are running twice as many trains yourself is also a greater achievement than getting the same figure when you run less. You have twice as many service for things to go wrong to or with!
 
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Failed Unit

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As for 'PPM being a major problem on rural lines' - as usual I don't see the slightest shred of evidence offered
The problem on rural lines is simple PPM is more important than getting passengers from A-B. Mainline train is 8 minutes late, local train leave on-time and empty. All of local trains passengers are stuck waiting for ages at mainline station. You have lots of angry passengers but at least the local train ran on time. I don't understand why this is such hard concept for you to grasp? I am sure your beloved passenger focus can explain this to you? I am sure if they could be bothered to do some research passengers might tell them that holding a local train on a lightly used rural line is more important to passengers using the route than the PPM. This has been proven, people just drive instead.

Any reasonable person would also recognise that achieving the same (or greater PPM) on a railway when you are running twice as many trains yourself is also a greater achievement than getting the same figure when you run less. You have twice as many service for things to go wrong to or with!
Which is exactly why I couldn't be bothered to do anymore research on publishing links to the 1996 figures. You couldn't care less what they say as above is your point of view what difference does it make? You can try and insult me all you like if you don't want to listen the I can't be bothered doing research.

I have given valid reason why I don't think things are not the best ever, some even you agree with. I really can't be bothered with people that think they know everything but have never used rural services and no the problems we face everyday.
 

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The problem on rural lines is simple PPM is more important than getting passengers from A-B. Mainline train is 8 minutes late, local train leave on-time and empty. All of local trains passengers are stuck waiting for ages at mainline station. You have lots of angry passengers but at least the local train ran on time. I don't understand why this is such hard concept for you to grasp? I am sure your beloved passenger focus can explain this to you? I am sure if they could be bothered to do some research passengers might tell them that holding a local train on a lightly used rural line is more important to passengers using the route than the PPM. This has been proven, people just drive instead.

Whose is arguing about the concept? What I'm asking it that, as you keep going on about it as a problem on today's railway you demonstrate that it really is a bigger problem now than then rather than just some abstract point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Which is exactly why I couldn't be bothered to do anymore research on publishing links to the 1996 figures. You couldn't care less what they say as above is your point of view what difference does it make? You can try and insult me all you like if you don't want to listen the I can't be bothered doing research.

What a cop-out.

Show that this really is the case and I'll be happy to accept what you say. I'd suggest the fact that you haven't produced any evidence at all speaks for itself.

After all in your own words :

"Timekeeping was always in the 90%+ under BR, fact."

"Do you remember BR? The timekeeping was better for a start about 90% on all routes,"

None of this has been proved. In fact I'll say that it's actually rubbish - which is why I asked for the figures for LTS and Merseyrail. And I'll stick my neck out and say that I'd like to see the figures for Cross-Country too...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well, it looks like I have to supply my own evidence. So here it is.

This is an excerpt form a 2001 research document from the University of Cambridge. It's titled

"The Restructuring and Privatisation of British Rail: Was it really that bad?"

As you can imagine, it's a thorough piece of work.

Sadly I'm unable to copy and paste the tables on page 27. But if anyone else can do it I'd appreciate it (they're tables 10 and 11)

http://www.dspace.cam.ac.uk/bitstream/1810/297/1/wp0118.pdf

Here's the text from those pages:

"(a) Train performance
Train performance (delay per passenger train) has improved significantly since privatisation (pre-Hatfield – see Figure 6 below). Performance improved sharply in the first year after privatisation (due to improvements by Railtrack), but then deteriorated steadily over the next three years (due to worsening train operator performance), before improving again in 1999/00. Overall, delays per passenger train in 1999/00 were down 16% compared to 1995/96. The performance regimes which exist between Railtrack and the TOCs, and between the TOCs and OPRAF/SRA, provide rewards/penalties for performance above/below target. These regimes have focused management attention on the issue of performance.

The key question is what would have happened to performance under public ownership, given the sharp volume growth we have seen in recent years. Of course, it is impossible to know for sure, though we note the absence of performance regimes under the old structure. However, we can gain some insight by comparing the changes in train performance and volume growth between 1995/96 and 1999/00 (under a privatised structure), with a comparable five year period of volume growth during the boom of the mid-to-late 1980s (under the old BR structure)
.
Table 10 shows that, since privatisation, train performance (measured by punctuality) has improved by 2.7%. This improvement was achieved against a background of growth in passenger miles and passenger train miles of 28% and 11% respectively over the period. During a comparable period in the 1980s (1984/85 to 1988/89)35, which saw lower volume growth, performance actually deteriorated (see Table 11). Even if we strip out the sharp improvement in performance achieved in the first year of the newly privatised structure (1996/97), the deterioration since then only amounts to 0.6%, compared to 1%36 during the period of BR control in the mid 1980s – whilst volume growth has been much greater.

This period saw sharp growth passenger miles, train miles and freight tonne-miles. 1988/89 is taken as the cut-off point, as passenger miles started to deteriorate after that date.

It therefore seems unlikely that train performance would have been better under public ownership; indeed, the evidence suggests that it may have been considerably worse."


Note that these figures are for BR overall. They don't mention performance for individual sectors (such as LTS or Cross-Country) which became franchises. I'm sure they would make just as interesting reading. The former LTS is now c2c which has achieved 95% punctuality. Anyone who thinks it got anything like that under BR must be dreaming. It wasn't called 'The Misery Line' for nothing!

So, as we can see, the assertion that "Timekeeping was always in the 90%+ under BR, fact." is completely untrue. It's also worth noting that this study reinforces what I've said a number of times: An increase in traffic and train frequency cannot be ignored when talking about punctuality.
 
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90019

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tablesi.jpg
 

Snapper

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I received this from c2c the other day, so I thought I would be a worthy postscript to this thread. After all - in the days of BR the LTS was known as the 'misery line'. The place was a byword for unreliability and a dumping ground for aged trains.

Now look at it uder privatisation. Not only does it have the best punctuality of all the TOCs - it also has the most reliable train fleet in the UK too - and they're no-one's hand-me-downs...

"c2c PUNCTUALITY IS NOW THE HIGHEST-EVER



Essex train operator c2c – a National Express franchise – announced last week that the company has become the best-performing train operator in the country with a service punctuality of 95.3% to the year ended 31 March 2009 - the highest-ever punctuality rating achieved by c2c over an annual 12-month period.



To mark this achievement, c2c Managing Director Julian Drury unveiled a new information poster at Southend Central station on Thursday 16 April. The posters will be displayed at key stations on the c2c network, informing customers that their journeys with c2c are now with the current best performing train operator in the country and at the highest-ever punctuality.



Julian Drury, Managing Director for c2c said:



“I am delighted that c2c customers are travelling on the current best performing train service in the country with average punctuality of 95.3%, the best annual punctuality score we have ever-achieved.



“I’m very grateful for the continued support and loyalty of our customers in the South Essex region and through the new information posters we’re keen to share with them the good news that c2c is currently delivering our best-ever service performance. We will continue to focus all our efforts in maintaining these high standards and in delivering further improvement.”
 

Flyboy

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It's worth noting that they've achieved this by considerable investment in all areas of the operation, and not paring everything back to the bone as many TOCs are currently doing.
 

jopsuk

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There's two things really suprise me about c2c:
1. That it even exists. How did it survive the creation of the Greater Anglia franchise (one, now Nat Ex EA)?
2. That Nat Ex haven't rebranded it (yet)- from what I've seen, this is because of the good reputation the c2c branding has.
 

222001

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There's two things really suprise me about c2c:
1. That it even exists. How did it survive the creation of the Greater Anglia franchise (one, now Nat Ex EA)?
2. That Nat Ex haven't rebranded it (yet)- from what I've seen, this is because of the good reputation the c2c branding has.

I don't know why they are bothering rebranding 'one' to NXEA when franchise is up in less than two years! Seems a waste of money. Is slapping NX over everything really that important.
 

Metroland

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Despite the press always moaning about late trains and just how bad the railways are, I thought you'd like to see a comparison between all public transport operators, taken from the most recent figures.

OPERATOR/ PUNCTUALITY - % on time
-------------------------------------

c2c 95.1
Chiltern Railways 94.8
South West Trains 92.9
Merseyrail 92.8
Arriva Trains Wales 92.3
London Overground 91.3
BMI regional 89.9
First Capital Connect 89.5
First Great Western 89.3
Eastern Airways 88.8
National Express East Anglia 88.5
Cross Country 88.1
Southeastern 87.1
Loganair 86.9
First Scotrail 86.5
National Express East Coast 86.1
Southern 86.1
TransPennine Express 85.9
East Midlands Trains 85.6
Hull Trains 84.9
Aer Arann 83.8
London Midland 83.5
Northern 83.3
Air Berlin 83
Virgin Trains 82.2
Brussels Airlines 79.3
Flybe 79
Buses Southern 79
Buses London 79
KLM 78.6
Buses Mixed areas 78
bmi baby 76.8
Ryanair 76.4
Buses Wales 76
VLM Airlines 75.7
Lufthansa 75.4
Eurowings 75.3
Jet2 73.3
Buses Rural 73
Monarch Scheduled 72.8
Swiss Airlines 72
Buses Large conurbations 72
City Jet / Scot Airways 71.8
easyJet 71.2
Scandinavian SAS 70.2
bmi British Midland 69.8
American Airlines 68.7
United Airlines 68.3
Buses North & Midlands 67
British Airways 66.8
Alitalia 66.7
Air France 66.5
Air Canada 66.1
Buses Scotland 66
TAP Air Portugal 65.6
Continental Airlines 65.4
Aer Lingus 65
flyglobespan 63.9
Iberia 62.6
BA Cityflyer 62.3
Virgin Atlantic 56.8
Emirates 53.7

----------------
RAIL Average 89.9
AIR Average 71.2%
BUS Average 74%
 

me123

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Interesting as well to note that all air operators above Virgin (with the possible exception of Air Berlin) are operating short haul services and probably rather long layovers as well. Also consdier that Loganair operates into several airports with only one service a day! When you look at this, it's amazing that the railways get such good punctuality!
 

Metroland

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The figures are also slightly in favour of the Airlines, with on time being counted as within 15 mins, with Rail is within 10 minutes. Sources: ORR, DFT, CAA, FlightonTime

One day (though I dunno whether it will be within my lifetime) the media will cut the Railways some slack. But I happen to think its because the media is so London centric and the Railways are very important to London, and if you are relying on something everyday, you notice the bad days.
 

bluenoxid

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And they can overtake each other and there is plenty of space to play around with

It's all well and good but imagine what could have been achieved if the railways hadn't been privatised

bluenoxid runs away very, very fast <D:lol:
 
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Metroland

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It's all well and good but imagine what could have been achieved if the railways hadn't been privatised

Not very much I should think with treasury rules and the fact that BR wasn't all that customer focussed. There's nothing like the ability of people to look back through rose coloured spectacles, and the constant negativity it seems to put things down - it seems especially from some 'enthusiasts', especially the ones that feed and write in the press.
 

me123

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One day (though I dunno whether it will be within my lifetime) the media will cut the Railways some slack. But I happen to think its because the media is so London centric and the Railways are very important to London, and if you are relying on something everyday, you notice the bad days.

The railways are an easy target, though. For some reason, it's engrained into people that railways are unreliable. That's view in my hometown. That said, look at the delays on the services. Very few and far between. Those that are delayed are handled well by the Scotrail on the most part. I can say that I can rely on my local trains; in four years of Saturday morning travel, I was delayed 2 times by 5 mins and cancelled once.

One of the good things about privatisation should be that there's competition to keep standards high. Consumers will look at c2c and notice that they are very reliable, and the TOCs will realise that passengers will expect this service level from them. Of course, that's a utopian world. National Express East Coats and Virgin could failrly argue that they operate long distance routes where more can go wrong along the way; there's more places for signal failures, for example.
 

Metroland

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The railways are an easy target, though. For some reason, it's engrained into people that railways are unreliable.

I expect because people are used to constant headlines about late running trains. It never fails to amaze me just how willing people are to believe journalists with axes to grind. Of course they aren't lieng, but just fail to make a complete comparison which tends to distort things somewhat. We don't tend to ever hear about late running buses because they tend to be used by poorer people, we also don't tend to hear about late running planes because of the Airline PR machine and most people only tend to use them very occasionally on jolly holidays.

It's similar to when so much fuss was made about train accidents and the public belief is the railways are unsafe. Thus billions is spent on safety for comparatively little risk (say compared to the roads) and we get all these daft rules like no passengers allowed in Mark 1s, despite a 150 odd years of advanced signalling systems. If the same rules were applied to roads, then HGVs would be banned. 5 people were killed the other day on the M1 and there was hardly a mention, meanwhile the railway gets shut down, restructured at great expense and lots of managers put in.

And people wonder why it gets expensive?

Meanwhile people are quite happy to get blotto at the weekend, when there are 40,000 alcohol related deaths per year but at the same time get worried about train accidents or terrorism when there is a tiny, tiny risk.

Funny old world.
 
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daccer

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I worked for BR in the 80's and it wasnt so great. There wa little optimism or forward thinking just a gradual slipping away of a once great network.

Privatisaton is flawed, of course, but it is probably the best of a bad lot. Whatever system you employ for the railways there will be some mistakes made and wastage. have a look at the 1955 modernisation plan. How many locos and marshalling yards were obsolete within ten years of being built.

What privatisation does bring is a vibrancy to the network. it needs to be refined and longer franchises are an issue which needs to be addressed. No one though can deny that things seem to be happening onthe railways now (35 bn over five years!) that never did happen. whether this is because of privatisation or despite it is actually irrelevant. What does matter is the simple fact that railways are back in fashion and have a momentum that will last decades as the external factors influencing their growth (climate change and oil prices especially) will only grow worse.

there are problems of course but these need tinkering with. Network Rail's strucure isnt totally right but that can be worked on and small changes made to tighten up governence and control. the franchising system is obviously an issue but to me i would simply extend those franchises that are performing well and increase the time period between costly and disruptive changes.

What we have is a system that is growing - for whatever reason - the time is now to push it to the next level. Once we see one line reopened in England we will probably see a dozen more the same as HS1 leads inevitably to HS 2 et al. The pruning and cutting of BR days has done much damage but most of it can be put right. Some important lines and facilities have been lost but for me the current railway era is shaping upto be very exciting.
 

43021HST

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BR MK1s are more Comfortable than the modern DMU no matter what any other people say and on some of them you get compartments. No modern TCO would even think of that.
 
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