New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[fgwrich]

I am sure 73109/235 received the SWT Desiro blue scheme in the late 00's.

So they've some blue paint left over from fgw then!

Plenty at Wabtec apparently, However that is not FGW 'Golden Wonder Blue'. That looks to me like the SWT Blue which as the 455s were repainted in Bournemouth, would have plenty in stock of.

Indeed 109 & 235 were repainted into the Desiro scheme - 109 has since been sold on to RT rail and GBRf, While 235 stayed with SWT. I wouldn't read too much into that repaint though as the style is the same as the SWT Desiro version, just without the Stagecoach sweeps.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It doesn't really matter what pretty colours the trains are, it's the standard of service what counts.

 

[ComUtoR]

It doesn't really matter what pretty colours the trains are, it's the standard of service what counts.

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHa !!!!

 

[Suraggu]

Plenty at Wabtec apparently, However that is not FGW 'Golden Wonder Blue'. That looks to me like the SWT Blue which as the 455s were repainted in Bournemouth, would have plenty in stock of.

Indeed 109 & 235 were repainted into the Desiro scheme - 109 has since been sold on to RT rail and GBRf, While 235 stayed with SWT. I wouldn't read too much into that repaint though as the style is the same as the SWT Desiro version, just without the Stagecoach sweeps.

Back to Woking T'Bird once the 442's restart on the Pompey direct perhaps?

End of the day I think people are reading far too much into it. Locos as well as units are due repaints every so often as part of overhauls and such like.

 

[Goldfish62]

They certainly are all painted - You only have to look at both pre production images of the Desiro fleet and to see them now. The roofs on the early 450s suffered rather badly from paint fade and were repainted by Siemens in Strawberry Hill depot. Unfortunately the external appearance of the Desiro's is the one thing that's letting the smartness of the 'brand' down - The 450s aren't looking too bad, but the 444s now have turned to an off-white colour, while the roofs on some of them have turned into a mushroom brown.

Both the 444s and 450s are due a repaint. SWT said in one of their webchats that a repaint programme would be started this year, so it's all good timing really, hopefully combined with an internal refurb (most seat cushions are badly collapsed now) including the promised and upgraded passenger information screens.

 

[Goldfish62]

It doesn't really matter what pretty colours the trains are, it's the standard of service what counts.

Absolutely agree, but then smart looking trains providing a good service gives a better impression than sh*t looking trains providing a good service.

 

[infobleep]

I wonder how soon after the election will we get an announcement or are they still discussing things that the election is having no barring on it.

 

[Dougal2345]

It doesn't really matter what pretty colours the trains are, it's the standard of service what counts.

It is a bit sad that the first thing new companies want to do when they take over a franchise is to repaint all the trains & stations in their corporate colours (even if they have to choose some new ones), an expensive and environmentally wasteful process.

Why don't they just change or choose their corporate colours to match the trains they are running? It's cost-free, and waste-free. Or is that just too sensible?

In my opinion the 444s look lovely in their current livery; I'll be amazed if they'll look better in any other scheme. The red and blue liveries are not too bad either, so I have a feeling whatever happens I'm not going to be happy

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I was under the distinct impression that the running/management of Guildford & at least one other station was due to be transferred from the franchise holder to NR.

So if that's correct that will be painted into NRs corporate colours, rather than those of the franchise holder.

 

[FOH]

Yeah a real shame. There's nothing wrong with keeping it as South West Trains.

 

[bramling]

It is a bit sad that the first thing new companies want to do when they take over a franchise is to repaint all the trains & stations in their corporate colours (even if they have to choose some new ones), an expensive and environmentally wasteful process.

Why don't they just change or choose their corporate colours to match the trains they are running? It's cost-free, and waste-free.

Agreed.

What I hate even more is the 'demobilisation' process at the end of a franchise. Like having to go round every Northern Rail station to tape over the word 'Northern' on signage, which is all the more silly when the new operator has basically the same name, and the difference is basically non-noticeable to the average passenger. Or like the demobilisation of FCC where the word 'First' had to be expunged and whoever did it took it a little far, taping over the 'First' part of 'First Class' on the trains was one of a number of mess ups. I understand why it's necessary in the modern branding-obsessed world, but it's still silly and wasteful.

 

[fgwrich]

It is a bit sad that the first thing new companies want to do when they take over a franchise is to repaint all the trains & stations in their corporate colours (even if they have to choose some new ones), an expensive and environmentally wasteful process.

Why don't they just change or choose their corporate colours to match the trains they are running? It's cost-free, and waste-free. Or is that just too sensible?

In my opinion the 444s look lovely in their current livery; I'll be amazed if they'll look better in any other scheme. The red and blue liveries are not too bad either, so I have a feeling whatever happens I'm not going to be happy

Perhaps First Group and MTR don't want to be seen using Stagecoach's house colours, nor would Stagecoach want to be using First Group or any other competitors livery though? It's gradually coming around to easier to transfer liveries with the likes of ScotRail, GWR & TSGN, But as SWT uses Stagecoach's own colours, I doubt either party would want to be using each others brand / livery & identity. Stagecoach wouldn't want to be seen using First Groups Dynamic Lines, and vice versa for First Group to be seen using Stagecoach's colours.

Plus, it could / would cause problems for passengers in the future - Due to the lack of refurbishment inside the Voyagers, most passengers along the XC routes still think that Virgin runs XC.

 

[fairysdad]

But as SWT uses Stagecoach's own colours, I doubt either party would want to be using each others brand / livery & identity. Stagecoach wouldn't want to be seen using First Groups Dynamic Lines, and vice versa for First Group to be seen using Stagecoach's colours.

I'll just leave this here... (Not my photo)

(For the benefit of our visually impaired users using a screen reader, and to avoid spoiling the joke, the explanation is in this visually hidden text: A First-liveried double decker bus with Stagecoach logos on it.)

 

[bb21]

Weren't those Olympians immediately put on the priority list to be withdrawn upon the purchase? I seem to remember Stagecoach diverted a batch of new buses ordered for elsewhere to replace them when the next suitable order was delivered?

Obviously running services in competitor's colours is better than not running at all due to a lack of vehicles in suitable livery.

Yes, forgot to say I did get the joke btw.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

All this speculation up the thread about a 444 for the launch date... now, folks, surely if they are going to use a 444 then the logical choice would be 444 038 instead...?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

All this speculation up the thread about a 444 for the launch date... now, folks, surely if they are going to use a 444 then the logical choice would be 444 038 instead...?

What's special about 444038?

How long would it take to repaint a 444 into the new livery (whatever that may end up being), before any vinyls are added?

 

[infobleep]

What did they do back in the day if lots of little risk way companies getting bought up or lines leased? Did they do repaint jobs then? What about when they become mostly the four larger companies? Did they do a massive rebrand?

Clearly not fully at Clapham Junction as that still has London Brighton and South Coast Railways in large letters on the front of the station. I'm surprised that's survived the 1960s general modernisation.

 

[Goldfish62]

I wonder how soon after the election will we get an announcement or are they still discussing things that the election is having no barring on it.

Signing of the contract is blocked by purdah.

I should imagine that soon there'll be a big press launch with whoever the Transport Secretary is (hopefully not Grayling) where the new image and winner of the new trains contract will all be unveiled. But I could be completely wrong.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yeah a real shame. There's nothing wrong with keeping it as South West Trains.

Personally I'm not a fan of the garish SWT liveries, especially the red version, but it's a recognisable, consistent image which is going to be all messed up, which is a pity.

 

[infobleep]

Signing of the contract is blocked by purdah.

I should imagine that soon there'll be a big press launch with whoever the Transport Secretary is (hopefully not Grayling) where the new image and winner of the new trains contract will all be unveiled. But I could be completely wrong.

Interesting how they can't sign a contract due to Purdah but the DfT can still, if rumours and/or comments are correct, interfere with GTR and the dispute with the conductors, OBS staff and drivers.

 

[swt_passenger]

I was under the distinct impression that the running/management of Guildford & at least one other station was due to be transferred from the franchise holder to NR.

Can't find that actually mentioned anywhere officially though, it isn't in the consultation draft, the stakeholder brief that followed the consultation, or in the ITT.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

May just have been the rumour mill doing its thing then.

 

[3141]

What did they do back in the day if lots of little risk way companies getting bought up or lines leased? Did they do repaint jobs then? What about when they become mostly the four larger companies? Did they do a massive rebrand?

Clearly not fully at Clapham Junction as that still has London Brighton and South Coast Railways in large letters on the front of the station. I'm surprised that's survived the 1960s general modernisation.

It was a completely different world in 1923 or earlier. The idea of branding was far less developed. Many railway companies were smaller than today's transport groups, and far less likely to be known well outside the area they operated in. If one of them took over an even smaller company there weren't so many people who might be impressed by rebranding the new acquisition. People travelled far less, so there would be a much smaller proportion of travellers who might see the new owner's name on the side of locos and say "By Jove, I see that X has taken over Y. Dashed good company, that!", in the way that one has to suppose present-day companies imagine we say today when we see their branding on their newly-acquired franchise.

Also, it would be a much slower job to rebrand. Rubbing down the existing paint, dealing with rust, applying several new coats of paint, lining out, would all take much longer than sticking on some vinyls, which of course weren't available then.

Even BR took several years to apply its logos, and as you've pointed out didn't achieve 100% coverage. There are photos of locos several years after 1948 where the name of the previous owning company is still there. But I think renumbering was carried out more quickly.

London Transport seems to have applied its name quite quickly from 1933 onwards, but that may have been because it represented a big organisational change which would lead to an improvement in the quality of public transport in its area.

 

[Suraggu]

In a staff franchise update today First/MTR have confirmed they are still planning to transfer the franchise on 20th August (So that puts to bed the rumour of a change of date to to the Waterloo upgrade).

 

[Pumbaa]

Can't find that actually mentioned anywhere officially though, it isn't in the consultation draft, the stakeholder brief that followed the consultation, or in the ITT.

Both Clapham and Guildford are going out. Is the draft FA available online?

 

[Bigfoot]

In a staff franchise update today First/MTR have confirmed they are still planning to transfer the franchise on 20th August (So that puts to bed the rumour of a change of date to to the Waterloo upgrade).

Never believe a rumour on the railway unless it is backed up by a trusted source, even then I still take a pinch of salt until it is black and white from the person or company involved.

 

[swt_passenger]

Both Clapham and Guildford are going out. Is the draft FA available online?

I was aiming to point out that it isn't predicted in any of the obvious public resources. I'm fairly sure that similar changes from TOC to NR in earlier franchises had been in the ITT.

I suppose they've still not sorted out the minor stations between Romsey and Salisbury that still belong to GWR though...

 

[Suraggu]

Never believe a rumour on the railway unless it is backed up by a trusted source, even then I still take a pinch of salt until it is black and white from the person or company involved.

How is it a rumour when its coming from the horses mouth? As far as both parties are concerned 20th August is still the handover date?

 

[Bigfoot]

How is it a rumour from the incoming TOC?

Where did first/mtr publicly state they were negotiating the start date of the franchise that was dictated by the dft many months ago?

 

[Suraggu]

Where did first/mtr publicly state they were negotiating the start date of the franchise that was dictated by the dft many months ago?

It was reported (by reputable rail journalists and industry insiders) that First/MTR were looking at negotiating with Stagecoach and the DfT for a later start date due to the Waterloo blockade.