London Bridge incident (03/06)

[PHILIPE]

So what do you propose? What liberties do you wish to take from us?

[According to Wikipedia, Civil Liberties cannot, by law, be abridged by Government hence the objections to the so called "Snoopers Charter". Just one of the clauses listed, however, is "The right to security and liberty". The other clauses would imply that nothing can be done in certain cases to observe this particular right and this could hamper enquiries into terror.]

 

[Bromley boy]

Turns out one of the attackers was known to the police and MI5. There is Channel 4 footage of him parading an ISIS flag about. Despite all this he was allowed to walk our streets - something seriously wrong somewhere.

He featured in c4 documentary "The Jihadis Next Door". You couldn't make it up.

There's a clip in the article below.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-jihadists-next-door-channel-4-a7774306.html

The documentary is available on Netflix, well worth a watch in my opinion.

 

[najaB]

OK so why do you think they sought ransoms for hostages then?

For the psychological impact of it - getting Western governments to beg would have been a great recruitment tool. But hostage taking (especially for ransom) is specifically forbidden in the Quran.

Edit: Edited to add - prisoners of war can be ransomed after the conflict has finished. Either ransomed in order to be returned to their families or released with a realistic prospect of survival.

 

[backontrack]

I watched most of the One Love Manchester concert last night. One thing that really struck me was the way just about everyone on stage was emphasising the importance of love for your fellow human beings. Not fear, or retaliation, or kneejerk political reactions, but love. This little bit from Katy Perry struck me



(It's 30s into this video for anyone interested).

That of course doesn't mean to say we shouldn't be doing whatever we reasonably can to try to stop awful events like those of Manchester and London happening again. Of course we should. And that requires rational decision-making on the basis of what is most likely to work (while being consistent with the moral and ethical values that I'm sure most of us hold). Remember too that it's perfectly possible to make rational, well thought out, decisions, with the fundamental motivation still being love for all humanity, rather than coming from fear of some groups of people.

Reading this thread, it seems to me that some people perhaps should ask themselves whether perhaps they are making the mistake of responding with fear and kneejerk reactions, rather than thinking rationally.

Best post on this thread.

 

[Barn]

For the psychological impact of it - getting Western governments to beg would have been a great recruitment tool. But hostage taking (especially for ransom) is specifically forbidden in the Quran.

Right, so even on that interpretation I was correct that a government begging is merely ISIS achieving exactly what it set out to do, and not a sign of their willingness to negotiate with us. They're just playing a game.

 

[najaB]

Right, so even on that interpretation I was correct that a government begging is merely ISIS achieving exactly what it set out to do, and not a sign of their willingness to negotiate with us. They're just playing a game.

But you miss the point I was making - if they were truly operating from religious principles they wouldn't even make the pretence of negotiation.

It would be like Jesus saying to the Devil - "Wait a sec, how about I make a pebble into a cupcake just to prove I can do it?"

 

[Barn]

But you miss the point I was making - if they were truly operating from religious principles they wouldn't even make the pretence of negotiation.

It would be like Jesus saying to the Devil - "Wait a sec, how about I make a pebble into a cupcake just to prove I can do it?"

It's not a question of truth. They think that they are operating from religious principles, we think that they're wrong.

 

[vrbarreto]

One thing ISIS was not short of at that point was money. At their 2014-2015 peak they were bringing in up to and over $2 billion a year.

Selling oil to Turkey no doubt....

 

[PHILIPE]

Listening to the Jeremy Kyle show today, it was mentioned that the word "Racist" hampers action by the various authorities as people are too frightened to do what could be done for fear of being accused of racism. Some accusers pick up on the slightest thing. Are you reading this Diane Abbott ?

 

[jonathan01n]

Hope the Injured recover soon and the dead can rest in peace.:cry:

 

[najaB]

It's not a question of truth. They think that they are operating from religious principles, we think that they're wrong.

*Some* of the foot soldiers think they are operating from religious principles, but the leadership do not.

Found among the belongings of two British jihadis who went off to Syria: Islam for Dummies. Clearly they were deeply religious people.

 

[takno]

Listening to the Jeremy Kyle show today, it was mentioned that the word "Racist" hampers action by the various authorities as people are too frightened to do what could be done for fear of being accused of racism. Some accusers pick up on the slightest thing. Are you reading this Diane Abbott ?

I'd be very surprised if she was, unless she developed an interest in trains from all the years she spent on the Daily Politics sofa with Portillo. Even if she did happen upon it she probably wouldn't be very interested in reading about what you'd heard on Jeremy Kyle. The man's a professional ****-stirrer of the highest order

 

[WelshBluebird]

it was mentioned that the word "Racist" hampers action by the various authorities as people are too frightened to do what could be done for fear of being accused of racism.

The thing is, what is usually the case with things like this, is that the people who are apparently offended by the thing actually aren't. It is just naive people who are worried about their jobs just assume that there will be offence caused (when again, as I said, there won't be), and so make a decision without consulting anyone else. That is the main thing causes the (massively exaggerated and often false) reports about banning easter or christmas etc. If these people actually consulted with the communities affected, they would realise that actually nothing would happen as long as you are sensitive to the subject (I.e. don't go blaming the majority for the minorities actions).

 

[Groningen]

That Theresa May and Boris Johnson did not fully support the mayor of London after he got attacked by the tweets of Donald Trump is in my eyes disgraceful. Surely an election is coming up. What would happen (response) if the mayor was a Conservative?

 

[PHILIPE]

The thing is, what is usually the case with things like this, is that the people who are apparently offended by the thing actually aren't. It is just naive people who are worried about their jobs just assume that there will be offence caused (when again, as I said, there won't be), and so make a decision without consulting anyone else. That is the main thing causes the (massively exaggerated and often false) reports about banning easter or christmas etc. If these people actually consulted with the communities affected, they would realise that actually nothing would happen as long as you are sensitive to the subject (I.e. don't go blaming the majority for the minorities actions).

It seems that the people who complain about "racism" are not the "victims" themselves, but people who purport to complain on their behalf.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It seems that the people who complain about "racism" are not the "victims" themselves, but people who purport to complain on their behalf.

But then, many people don't believe that what they said was racist until a white person tells them it was...

 

[backontrack]

That Theresa May and Boris Johnson did not fully support the mayor of London after he got attacked by the tweets of Donald Trump is in my eyes disgraceful. Surely an election is coming up. What would happen (response) if the mayor was a Conservative?

Agreed.

 

[Barn]

That Theresa May and Boris Johnson did not fully support the mayor of London after he got attacked by the tweets of Donald Trump is in my eyes disgraceful. Surely an election is coming up. What would happen (response) if the mayor was a Conservative?

They'd be angry, but I don't think we've ever been in a position in recent times whereby a British PM overtly dresses down a US President in public for any reason. We don't conduct diplomacy like that. We live in unprecedented times with Trump though.

 

[J-2739]

I heard on the radio, this afternoon, that an 8th person has died as a result of injuries.

 

[Groningen]

Than there is the death of frenchman Xavier Thomas found in the Thames. Not that it matters, but does this make it 8 or 9 deaths. Any death (in this attack) is 1 too many.