Stopped in Stratford with no ticket

[Redtone]

I'm strating to get really stressed out and worried about this penalty thing, I have no idea whats going on.

I just got a letter theough from abelio greater anglia prosecutions unit asking for my details and it says things like court. I just have no idea really.

I was stopped it stratford by a guy near the jubilee platforms when i came out of platform 10 way. I couldn't buy a ticket from my local station as the ticket machine was broken (as it is most of the time), and so usually one of the polite conductors on my train would ask me if I need a ticket. As I've been travelling too and from school for 7 years on this train and have always bought monthly tickets the entire time, I've gotten to know the conductors. But however this time for some odd reason I did not see a conductor and therefor couldn't buy a ticket before i got to stratford.

So when I arrived at stratford i was planning to get on the jubilee line in order to go to my job interview, however as I had no ticket for the journey I had just made, I went to the ticket machine just by the DLR platform and the Jubilee platforms, and obvious attempted to buy a ticket for my travel, but obviously I couldn't because the tickets only go from stratford and not my local station (so theres no possible way). So after attempting that i just proceeded to top up my oyster and then head over to the right of me to scan in for the jubilee, this is when i was stopped.

This guy had got extreamly close to me for no aparant reason and asked if I had a ticket from where I travelled, I said no because the ticket machine from where I am from is not working. He said, "but yeah mate i just saw you walk from that ticket machine there you could of bought one", at this point I had no time to argue and I just wrote down my details really quickly as I had an interview to go too that I did not want to miss.

Now I have a letter from the prosecutions unit and im stressing out because I have almost no money, i'm 18 and ive just come out of the army to have surgery for 1 year. I dont have a job and I have nothing. I certainly do not want a criminal record as I've never been in trouble wih police or anything, I just feel like a total criminal.

Im just wondering how much the fine will be, will I get convicted or something i have no idea, a criminal record? And how long will it all take because I just want it all sorted because I cant stand having this hanging over me.

The cost of the ticket is usually 20 pounds.
I always thought penalty fares was single for the ticket you dont have, then another single on top of that? With a min of 20 quid. But this seems different, im going to be prosecuted for the same situation as a penalty fare?

Thanks in advance.

 

[mat64nl]

Hello there,

the best thing I can advise to do is settle it out of court. This will cost roughly £100 if AGA agree to go ahead with it. From what you have said, it is apparent you didn't lie to the inspector; which is a good thing as it can get you out of a much larger fine and/or criminal record, as this is fraud. It is an unfortunate event which happens to many people and not much can be done about it now. You'd want to contact AGA about settling it out of court. If not, unfortunately, it's likely you'd be summoned.

EDIT: Could I also ask which law AGA have mentioned in the prosecution letter?

Mat64nl

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do AGA ticket machines offer tickets from another station? Some TOCs do, some don't. If they don't, there is basically no case.

 

[najaB]

What station had you traveled from?

 

[Z12XE]

Do AGA ticket machines offer tickets from another station? Some TOCs do, some don't. If they don't, there is basically no case.

Not the old ones (but they are about to be upgraded).

Redtone - What station did you travel from?

 

[Redtone]

Not the old ones (but they are about to be upgraded).

Redtone - What station did you travel from?

BUU

Thanks for the info guys

 

[greatkingrat]

Do AGA ticket machines offer tickets from another station? Some TOCs do, some don't. If they don't, there is basically no case.

Even if the TVM couldn't sell the required ticket, I assume the ticket office at Stratford was open and would have been able to sell a ticket from whatever the original origin was.

 

[Redtone]

Hello there,

the best thing I can advise to do is settle it out of court. This will cost roughly £100 if AGA agree to go ahead with it. From what you have said, it is apparent you didn't lie to the inspector; which is a good thing as it can get you out of a much larger fine and/or criminal record, as this is fraud. It is an unfortunate event which happens to many people and not much can be done about it now. You'd want to contact AGA about settling it out of court. If not, unfortunately, it's likely you'd be summoned.

EDIT: Could I also ask which law AGA have mentioned in the prosecution letter?

Mat64nl

There is no law mentioned, its says:

On (date) between (local station) and stratford stations a person giving the above name and address was questioned by a member of rail staff about the payment of a rail fare.

All of the available evidence is being considered as to whether legal proceedings are appropriate. If you consider that there are further mitigating factos that may influence any decision that may be made about this matter you are invited to respond, within 14 days of the date of this letter using the enclosed freepost envelope. If you wish to make any comments about the incident, please do so on the reverse of this letter. Please ensure that ALL details below are completed and returned to ensure our records are up to date.

 

[najaB]

Even if the TVM couldn't sell the required ticket, I assume the ticket office at Stratford was open and would have been able to sell a ticket from whatever the original origin was.

Presumably. Though that's getting into 'do you have to delay your journey' territory.

 

[Redtone]

Even if the TVM couldn't sell the required ticket, I assume the ticket office at Stratford was open and would have been able to sell a ticket from whatever the original origin was.

Thats very true and I never thought of getting to the ticket office, i didnt even know there was one. Do you mind me asking where it is?

 

[MikeWh]

Several posts just approved from the last 2 hours.

 

[najaB]

Thats very true and I never thought of getting to the ticket office, i didnt even know there was one. Do you mind me asking where it is?

Have a look at the National Rail Enquiries map of London Stratford station.

 

[najaB]

BUU

Around what time and what day of the week were you travelling?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even if the TVM couldn't sell the required ticket, I assume the ticket office at Stratford was open and would have been able to sell a ticket from whatever the original origin was.

Passengers are not required to miss a connection to purchase a ticket.

 

[Redtone]

Around what time and what day of the week were you travelling?

Tuesday in the morning around 0900 i think

 

[yorkie]

I always thought penalty fares was single for the ticket you dont have, then another single on top of that? With a min of 20 quid. But this seems different, im going to be prosecuted for the same situation as a penalty fare?

If what you say is true, the legislation does not allow them to issue a Penalty Fare, if there was no opportunity to purchase a ticket at your origin station.

The view of many rail operators in the London & South East area is along the following lines:

"A Penalty Fare is a charge that [the operator] is allowed to make under the Regulations and Rules. It is not a fine, and anyone who is charged one is not being accused of avoiding, or attempting to avoid, paying their fare"

(source: Chiltern Penalty fare leaflet)

It sounds like they are threatening you with prosecution; if they are successful in prosecuting you under the Regulations of Railways Act that would be a recordable criminal offence.

If you are certain you did nothing wrong, you should certainly consider getting legal advice (but do not consider representing yourself in court!)

However the company could argue that you should have asked staff for the location of the ticket office to pay your fare there, so I am not convinced it's worth fighting this.

If they will agree to reach an out of court settlement, that may be a better outcome.

 

[Redtone]

If what you say is true, the legislation does not allow them to issue a Penalty Fare, if there was no opportunity to purchase a ticket at your origin station.

The view of many rail operators in the London & South East area is along the following lines: (source: Chiltern Penalty fare leaflet)

It sounds like they are threatening you with prosecution; if they are successful in prosecuting you under the Regulations of Railways Act that would be a recordable criminal offence.

If you are certain you did nothing wrong, you should certainly consider getting legal advice (but do not consider representing yourself in court!)

However the company could argue that you should have asked staff for the location of the ticket office to pay your fare there, so I am not convinced it's worth fighting this.

If they will agree to reach an out of court settlement, that may be a better outcome.

Many thanks for your reply.

Yeah I have no issue for paying for a private settlement of around £100, but anything more than that I wouldnt even be able to finacially afford. Ie i only have 150 in my bank account.

I'm just worried that they may want more? And that i may end up with a criminal record, which i really dont want as im trying to get a job so I can actually keep myself alive.

I called up the number on the letter and got in contact with one of the officers, and it was actually the same guy doing my case. He explained that if in the report it shows that i wasnt effing and jeffing and things like that (which i wasnt, good boy me ahah) then it would be settled privatley.

I didnt really get a number or even an estimate from him, but to be honest he was very polite and understood everything i was saying and was pleased that i called.

 

[najaB]

If what you say is true, the legislation does not allow them to issue a Penalty Fare, if there was no opportunity to purchase a ticket at your origin station.

The problem is that, according to NRE, Burnham-on-Crouch (assuming that's what the OP meant by BUU) has a ticket office that would have been open at the time that the OP was travelling.

 

[Redtone]

The problem is that, according to NRE, Burnham-on-Crouch (assuming that's what the OP meant by BUU) has a ticket office that would have been open at the time that the OP was travelling.

There is a ticket office, however it is very small and there is alot of passangers getting on the train to London. Theres 1 man working it and the queue is usually out of the door. Where I come in on the platform is far down from the office, and to be homest I usually just assume that there will be a conductor on the train I can buy my ticket from (which I've now learned is a bad idea).

 

[yorkie]

Many thanks for your reply.

Yeah I have no issue for paying for a private settlement of around £100, but anything more than that I wouldnt even be able to finacially afford. Ie i only have 150 in my bank account.

I'm just worried that they may want more? And that i may end up with a criminal record, which i really dont want as im trying to get a job so I can actually keep myself alive.

I called up the number on the letter and got in contact with one of the officers, and it was actually the same guy doing my case. He explained that if in the report it shows that i wasnt effing and jeffing and things like that (which i wasnt, good boy me ahah) then it would be settled privatley.

I didnt really get a number or even an estimate from him, but to be honest he was very polite and understood everything i was saying and was pleased that i called.

Sorry but we do not know how much they are going to agree to settle for.

I've heard such wildly differing sums there is no way we could possibly guess.

But if what he says is true, then they are going to agree to settle the matter and you should accept that.

There is a ticket office, however it is very small and there is alot of passangers getting on the train to London. Theres 1 man working it and the queue is usually out of the door. Where I come in on the platform is far down from the office, and to be homest I usually just assume that there will be a conductor on the train I can buy my ticket from (which I've now learned is a bad idea).

If the ticket office was open, then the view of the rail industry is that you have to queue for as long as it takes unless the staff or a notice has stated that you may board without a ticket.

If queues are regularly longer than in Greater Anglia's passenger charter (3 minutes off peak / 5 minutes peak), you can report the company to the regulator, but that's a separate unconnected matter. If many people reported this, then the company would have to either employ more staff or allow people to buy on board. But if people do not report it, the long queues will likely continue unabated. None of this is relevant to your case unfortunately and it's not a valid defence.

 

[Redtone]

Sorry but we do not know how much they are going to agree to settle for.

I've heard such wildly differing sums there is no way we could possibly guess.

But if what he says is true, then they are going to agree to settle the matter and you should accept that.

If the ticket office was open, then the view of the rail industry is that you have to queue for as long as it takes unless the staff or a notice has stated that you may board without a ticket.

If queues are regularly longer than in Greater Anglia's passenger charter (3 minutes off peak / 5 minutes peak), you can report the company to the regulator, but that's a separate unconnected matter. If many people reported this, then the company would have to either employ more staff or allow people to buy on board. But if people do not report it, the long queues will likely continue unabated. None of this is relevant to your case unfortunately and it's not a valid defence.

Yeah okay, thank you guys.

I think im gonna just take this on the chin and have it settled privately. Might have to sell my kidney but we'll see how it goes haha. I'll keep this updated, going to just explain the part about the ticket machine at stratford on the back of the letter and thats all.

 

[nesw]

I've not read much about elsewhere but from. 30 April GA have extended penalty fares to the Sudbury and Southminster lines.

https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tickets-fares/penalty-fares

The following stations will become part of the Penalty Fare scheme from 30 April 2017, if you travel from one of these stations, you will need to buy a ticket before you board the train.


Weeley, Sudbury, Bures, Chappel & Wakes Colne, Cressing, White Notley, Battlesbridge, South Woodham Ferrers, North Fambridge, Althorne, Burnham-on-Crouch, Southminster

 

[Redtone]

If not read much about elsewhere but from. 30 April GA have extended penalty fares to the Sudbury and Southminster lines.

https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tickets-fares/penalty-fares

There was a sign up about that at the station but then they took it down after about 2 days. I bought my ticket from the conductor 2 days ago, so i dont really know whats going on with as of yet.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Possibly the OP was on the 0820 (at BUU) through service from the Southminster branch to Stratford. Maybe there are no conductors on the through trains, only on the ones which terminate at Wickford.
I have occasionally boarded at Althorne to travel to North Fambridge, and the conductor has put in an appearance pretty sharpish!

 

[najaB]

Possibly the OP was on the 0820 (at BUU) through service from the Southminster branch to Stratford. Maybe there are no conductors on the through trains, only on the ones which terminate at Wickford.

That's entirely possible, however BUU is a staffed station with ticket machines to boot, so the OP was already foul of the Byelaws when they boarded without a ticket.

 

[Redtone]

Possibly the OP was on the 0820 (at BUU) through service from the Southminster branch to Stratford. Maybe there are no conductors on the through trains, only on the ones which terminate at Wickford.
I have occasionally boarded at Althorne to travel to North Fambridge, and the conductor has put in an appearance pretty sharpish!

Yeah the conductors are usually always very quick. Just annoying that I didnt see one that day, i've learnt not to rely on that now anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

Presumably. Though that's getting into 'do you have to delay your journey' territory.

It also gets into 'does it apply to through journeys onto LU' territory. I'm sure opinions will differ on that as well...

 

[Redtone]

That's entirely possible, however BUU is a staffed station with ticket machines to boot, so the OP was already foul of the Byelaws when they boarded without a ticket.

As far as I know you can board the trains without a ticket up until wickford. The conductors will sell you a ticket. I've always either bought my ticket from the machine or the conductor for the entire 7 years ive been using the line.

 

[najaB]

As far as I know you can board the trains without a ticket up until wickford. The conductors will sell you a ticket. I've always either bought my ticket from the machine or the conductor for the entire 7 years ive been using the line.

Please don't confuse the Penalty Fares Rules with the Railway Byelaws.

Legally, you cannot board *any* train without first paying your fare and obtaining a ticket or other authority to travel where facilities have been provided to enable you to do so. This applies to all national rail lines. On some lines, specific *additional* rules allow TOCs to charge a penalty fare rather than prosecute under the byelaws.

 

[Redtone]

Please don't confuse the Penalty Fares Rules with the Railway Byelaws.

Legally, you cannot board *any* train without first paying your fare and obtaining a ticket or other authority to travel where facilities have been provided to enable you to do so. This applies to all national rail lines. On some lines, specific *additional* rules allow TOCs to charge a penalty fare rather than prosecute under the byelaws.

God im confused why does it need to be so complicated