ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Clansman]

To be fair with the luggage space concerns - many of the routes that the HSTs will serve will also have a substantial increase in capacity. For example, the HML will eventually go hourly and there will be a new Arbroath/Dundee to Glasgow stopper service which will help spread the load.

Not making excuses though, since the plans suggest that there has been a few shortcuts taken and the space doesn't seems to be fully utilised, so hopefully the criticisms will be listened to.

I'll take your point about services spreading the load of luggage, but I think the problem stems a bit wider because many passengers going to Inverness from Edinburgh and Glasgow often switch to Perth, as services will be hourly from there. As Inverness passengers typically have more luggage, this clogs up Aberdeen services as well as already adding to the capacitated Inverness service they connect to. In my opinion, the additional services which will see a half hourly frequency to Perth will only entice Inverness passengers to change there, rather than waiting longer in Glasgow for the next Inverness services. This would continue the existing trend of Inverness passengers clogging up Aberdeen services, as well as the connecting Inverness service which is near full most of the time into Perth. Maybe a tactical approach to the fares could solve this?

In the short term there are depot problems preventing wider use of 5 car sets. Adding a dozen or so Mk3 trailers to the fleet will not be a problem if passenger numbers do rise well above expectations.

Although there are hundreds of Mk3s across the country, most of which are due for replacement and the inevitable scrapping which comes with it by 2019 - so wouldn't Scotrail have to move quickly to secure additional carriages before those currently in operation post-2019 become the majority? What's the chances of rolling stock companies retaining a number of Mk3s in anticipation of Scotrail (or any other operator like XC) wanting to lease further coaches?

 

[CosherB]

Although there are hundreds of Mk3s across the country, most of which are due for replacement and the inevitable scrapping which comes with it by 2019 - so wouldn't Scotrail have to move quickly to secure additional carriages before those currently in operation post-2019 become the majority? What's the chances of rolling stock companies retaining a number of Mk3s in anticipation of Scotrail (or any other operator like XC) wanting to lease further coaches?

Unless there are utterly demic Mk3s in daily use (which I'd doubt there are many), I'd say a significant number of HST trailers and Mk3 LHCS will be parked up in secure storage in the short to medium term. Possibly also with the Mk4 LHCS!

 

[Northhighland]

I'll take your point about services spreading the load of luggage, but I think the problem stems a bit wider because many passengers going to Inverness from Edinburgh and Glasgow often switch to Perth, as services will be hourly from there. As Inverness passengers typically have more luggage, this clogs up Aberdeen services as well as already adding to the capacitated Inverness service they connect to. In my opinion, the additional services which will see a half hourly frequency to Perth will only entice Inverness passengers to change there, rather than waiting longer in Glasgow for the next Inverness services. This would continue the existing trend of Inverness passengers clogging up Aberdeen services, as well as the connecting Inverness service which is near full most of the time into Perth. Maybe a tactical approach to the fares could solve this?



Although there are hundreds of Mk3s across the country, most of which are due for replacement and the inevitable scrapping which comes with it by 2019 - so wouldn't Scotrail have to move quickly to secure additional carriages before those currently in operation post-2019 become the majority? What's the chances of rolling stock companies retaining a number of Mk3s in anticipation of Scotrail (or any other operator like XC) wanting to lease further coaches?

The solution is adequate capacity to inverness. The current situation is pretty shambolic, the trains are regularly full especially leaving Glasgow. Not at all unusual to stand to Perth which I find totally unacceptable.

I think the 4 car units will still struggle, I know a lot of people do not use the train because of the crowding and general poor service, more would use the train if the service was better.

It is long overdue that services to Inverness were improved.

 

[Blindtraveler]

As an asside there has been additional coach capacity between Edinburgh and Inverness announced today with the introduction of Citylink Gold! Given that if the coach gets a good run its faster than rail this does I feel put the pressure on a bit

 

[Clansman]

The solution is adequate capacity to inverness. The current situation is pretty shambolic, the trains are regularly full especially leaving Glasgow. Not at all unusual to stand to Perth which I find totally unacceptable.

I think the 4 car units will still struggle, I know a lot of people do not use the train because of the crowding and general poor service, more would use the train if the service was better.

It is long overdue that services to Inverness were improved.

The comparison of the capacity of Scotrail's 4 car HST to a single 170 is pretty worrying, especially for Inverness services.

As shown in the attachment below, there's only a 36 seat difference between the 2 in standard class, which isn't even half of the capacity of a 170 centre coach.
36 additional seats would only really be enough to cover for the standees on current services - leaving little to no flexibility.

Also, services to Inverness (and even Inverness to Aberdeen) which normally consist of 2 x 158s are always heaving as well. Given that a doubled Scotrail 158 has ~70 more standard class seats than a 4-car HST, this is further proof that 4-car HSTs simply don't have the flexible capacity to cope with Intercity services radiating from Inverness.

Even a 5-car HST doesn't even equate to the standard class capacity to a doubled up 170 (although there aren't any diagrammed 6-car services on Inverness), which shows that even 5-cars will struggle during busy periods outwith the regular commuter rush.

Going by the figures, in my opinion, 5-car HSTs are far more suitable for Scotrail, as 4-car HSTs simply would struggle to meet the current peak demand on services radiating to/from Inverness. We can only hope that Scotrail has played their cards right and the usage of services to/from Inverness is evened out through the small proportion of additional seats, extra services and cut intermediate stops.

 

[Blindtraveler]

This is just the same old problem of whichever bus company is running scotfail having a policy of providing not quite enough capacity on anything.

 

[InOban]

They will provide precisely the capacity and service specified in the franchise. If you want more, then you need to speak to the paymaster in Holyrood.

 

[Highland37]

Citylink Gold has been available from Inverness for some years now. New services are to be welcomed but I fear for the railway given how slow it is to respond and how expensive the slightest improvement is.

 

[NotATrainspott]

And again, you cannot view train lengths in total isolation to the other capacity improvements that are planned. There's little point extending trains if simultaneously there will be more services. As nice as it is to have lots of excess capacity, this isn't necessarily a good or sustainable idea from a financial perspective. Extra subsidy for longer HSTs means less money for schools and hospitals.

 

[XC90]

Just add another carriage to an HST. Can't do that with a 170.

 

[Clansman]

And again, you cannot view train lengths in total isolation to the other capacity improvements that are planned. There's little point extending trains if simultaneously there will be more services. As nice as it is to have lots of excess capacity, this isn't necessarily a good or sustainable idea from a financial perspective. Extra subsidy for longer HSTs means less money for schools and hospitals.

I agree, hence why I've compared capacity.

Just to reemphasise, I did only state that 4-car HSTs would struggle to cope with the peak time demand in standard class - but then again, that's where Scotrail would look at it from an operational perspective and utilise the 5-car HSTs. It's whether or not they'd be able to concentrate 5-car HSTs on these peak time services all across the network which would easily clog up a 4-car HST, is my worry.

Although 4-car HSTs would provide passengers with a seat most of the time outwith the peaks, it's the limited seated flexibility in the peaks that have me doubting them - rather than simply fantasising around the idea of there having empty seats left right and centre in a 5-car HST in quiet periods.

 

[najaB]

...but the cheapo attitude which means there will 4 car sets (how stupid)...

The plan is, as I understand it, to allocate the four carriage sets to Aberdeen-Inverness for the most part. I'm not the most frequent passenger on that route, but I've only once been on a service that was busy end to end. There will be plenty of Mk3 carriages going into storage, so I doubt there will be a problem extending the 4 carriage sets to 5 carriages if needs be.

 

[47271]

It's whether or not they'd be able to concentrate 5-car HSTs on these peak time services all across the network which would easily clog up a 4-car HST, is my worry.

In my view this is the main risk, not the general overcrowding of HML services.

To read some of the last few posts in this thread you'd think that people are practically sitting on the roof of every train between Perth and Inverness at the moment. They aren't. Masses of space southbound on anything leaving Inverness before 10am at any time of year. Likewise anything northbound leaving Perth after 6pm.

It's mid to late afternoon services that seem to be the killer, and I'll bet anything that within two days of the HSTs coming on, a four coach number will find itself on the gruesome 1617 north from Perth on a Friday because that was all they were able to find at Queen Street. I know this'll happen because they can't keep Standard Class only 170s off the route as it is...

 

[route:oxford]

To me this just highlights the need for extra services operating on the core route between Perth & Glasgow. All stations to Stirling, then fast to Glasgow and vice versa.

 

[Clansman]

It's mid to late afternoon services that seem to be the killer, and I'll bet anything that within two days of the HSTs coming on, a four coach number will find itself on the gruesome 1617 north from Perth on a Friday because that was all they were able to find at Queen Street. I know this'll happen because they can't keep Standard Class only 170s off the route as it is...

Agree with you there. That 13:34 from Edinburgh is absolute murder any day as well - Scotrail guards have been complaining about that service for years, so I'm told.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The ScotRail service expansion announced last year (due to the retention of 13 more 170s) includes an hourly semi-fast Glasgow-Dundee service. That'll do quite a bit to help with loadings on the HST services.

 

[158722]

To me this just highlights the need for extra services operating on the core route between Perth & Glasgow. All stations to Stirling, then fast to Glasgow and vice versa.

Is there actually capacity for that south of Stirling and along the E&G from Greenhill? Perhaps just extending the xx49 QS-Dunblane stopper to Perth and back would be useful. Not great journey times end to end, but useful extra service from Perth. Would just take one extra unit to cover.
QS 0849
Dunb 0958
Perth 1026
Perth 1045
Dunb 1113
QS 1203

 

[Clansman]

If I remember rightly, Scotrail committed to omitting Bishopbriggs, Lenzie and Croy from peak time Dunblane services, or something on similar lines. Having an all-stopper to Perth simply wouldn't work due to the crap journey time, but if there was an additional semi-fast peak service to compliment the additional Dundee stoppers, that would truly set Perth up for a good few years at least - until electrification at least, there isn't a need to extend Glasgow to Dunblane services to Perth out with peak times - due to the 2tph off-peak frequency commencing 2018 (the current peak rate) with 3tph frequency every 2 hours with the new Inverness services.

I highly doubt the current line from Greenhill to Glasgow would cope with any extra services without concessions being made - isn't one of the reasons some Inverness to Glasgow services are diagrammed via Cumbernauld due to capacity issues?

Now we just need an improvement to Edinburgh services from Perth then we're all set. The current journey times to Perth are a disgrace - hopefully the HSTs will run non-stop to Haymarket like Aberdeen-Edinburgh services currently do.

 

[158722]

If I remember rightly, Scotrail committed to omitting Bishopbriggs, Lenzie and Croy from peak time Dunblane services, or something on similar lines. Having an all-stopper to Perth simply wouldn't work due to the crap journey time, but if there was an additional semi-fast peak service to compliment the additional Dundee stoppers, that would truly set Perth up for a good few years at least - until electrification at least, there isn't a need to extend Glasgow to Dunblane services to Perth out with peak times - due to the 2tph off-peak frequency commencing 2018 (the current peak rate) with 3tph frequency every 2 hours with the new Inverness services.

I highly doubt the current line from Greenhill to Glasgow would cope with any extra services without concessions being made - isn't one of the reasons some Inverness to Glasgow services are diagrammed via Cumbernauld due to capacity issues?

Now we just need an improvement to Edinburgh services from Perth then we're all set. The current journey times to Perth are a disgrace - hopefully the HSTs will run non-stop to Haymarket like Aberdeen-Edinburgh services currently do.

True enough, I'd forgotten about the Dundee semi-fast which does fit the bill nicely.

 

[route:oxford]

The ScotRail service expansion announced last year (due to the retention of 13 more 170s) includes an hourly semi-fast Glasgow-Dundee service. That'll do quite a bit to help with loadings on the HST services.

As long as it is well timetabled.

At present, it's often not worth getting a slow to Stirling when you can spend a bit longer in the shops or at the office and get back to stirling on the fast a few minutes later.

 

[najaB]

At present, it's often not worth getting a slow to Stirling when you can spend a bit longer in the shops or at the office and get back to stirling on the fast a few minutes later.

If someone chooses to let a train with seats go in order to catch another one then they hardly have a valid complaint if they end up having to stand though, do they?

 

[route:oxford]

If someone chooses to let a train with seats go in order to catch another one then they hardly have a valid complaint if they end up having to stand though, do they?

It all depends on who doesn't get the seat.

A fast also means you don't have to sit next to the rougher types from the 'Briggs, Croy and Larbert.

 

[Starmill]

If someone chooses to let a train with seats go in order to catch another one then they hardly have a valid complaint if they end up having to stand though, do they?

When deciding which train to catch, people will naturally be more inclined to choose the services which offer the best journey times, subject to their appropriate arrival and departure times. This is a reasonably universal phenomenon and is entirely expected!

 

[najaB]

This is a reasonably universal phenomenon and is entirely expected!

I don't disagree, but in routexford's example it may be a choice between a slightly longer journey with a seat, or a shorter journey while standing. The point I was making is that sometimes it's a choice between having your cake and eating it.

 

[Clansman]

Ultimately, is there even enough left over capacity to allow for Stirling/Dunblane/Alloa services to bypass Briggs/Lenzie/Croy, whilst still having a service which keeps the current frequencies at these stations?

 

[Carntyne]

This is just the same old problem of whichever bus company is running scotfail having a policy of providing not quite enough capacity on anything.

The franchisee doesn't set the capacity. Transport Scotland do.

 

[InOban]

This thread has drifted a long way from its title - it should be under the Allocations and timetables section.

But while it's here, I can point out that one of the key enhancements asked for by the industry for the next CP is the grade separation of Greenhill Upper. This would increase the capacity of the line and possibly make it feasible to have an all-stations to Grangemouth as well as the Stirling services.

 

[Northhighland]

In my view this is the main risk, not the general overcrowding of HML services.

To read some of the last few posts in this thread you'd think that people are practically sitting on the roof of every train between Perth and Inverness at the moment. They aren't. Masses of space southbound on anything leaving Inverness before 10am at any time of year. Likewise anything northbound leaving Perth after 6pm.

It's mid to late afternoon services that seem to be the killer, and I'll bet anything that within two days of the HSTs coming on, a four coach number will find itself on the gruesome 1617 north from Perth on a Friday because that was all they were able to find at Queen Street. I know this'll happen because they can't keep Standard Class only 170s off the route as it is...

I regularly travel Inverness to Glasgow and Edinburgh on the 06:45 train, don't recognise your view that it has plenty space. I agree it is never absolutely full, but is regularly pretty close to full. North bound it is common to stand to Perth, especially from Glasgow. That is over an hour, totally unacceptable.

There are a lot more people that could use the train, they don't because you don't always get a seat and the service is poor. If both these issues were solved they would use rail, this is a golden opportunity to improve capacity, improve the service, it should not be missed.

 

[Clansman]

This thread has drifted a long way from its title - it should be under the Allocations and timetables section.

But while it's here, I can point out that one of the key enhancements asked for by the industry for the next CP is the grade separation of Greenhill Upper. This would increase the capacity of the line and possibly make it feasible to have an all-stations to Grangemouth as well as the Stirling services.

I'll take your point to the extent of drifting from the topic on the basis of the thread section it's in - but in some cases, station frequency and line capacity are relevant in this. The whole issue with station frequency and capacity has arisen primarily on the basis of the omission of intermediate stations (such as Dunblane, Gleneagles, Stonehaven etc) from Intercity services once the HSTs are introduced, leading to further DMU services being introduced to maintain and in some cases enhance the frequency of these stations to principle stations - thus a direct impact of Scotrail's plans for the HSTs.

 

[47271]

I regularly travel Inverness to Glasgow and Edinburgh on the 06:45 train, don't recognise your view that it has plenty space. I agree it is never absolutely full, but is regularly pretty close to full. North bound it is common to stand to Perth, especially from Glasgow. That is over an hour, totally unacceptable.

Well, this morning I've nearly completed my journey south from Kingussie to Perth on the 0645 ex Inverness and Coach C has never exceeded more than one fifth full, very spacious and pleasant it is too. A and B didn't look that busy either when they sailed by. The 170 is unrefurbished and threadbare inside, but that's something else entirely.

As far as standing Queen Street to Perth is concerned, that is totally unacceptable, but I suspect your observation also applies to afternoon services. The 1811 Glasgow-Inverness is very popular with commuters but Coach C is generally down to a quarter full after Dunblane.

Anyway, my point was that they just need to mind that they keep the four coach sets off the services that they know to be busting out already. My other point was that they're unlikely to be able to achieve that.