ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Blindtraveler]

A borris Bikes type scheme would work well in Scotland at High season IMO, docking at major transport hubs for rail, bus, air and ferry with contactless payment terminals and an app but baring in mind much of the highlands is hopeless for signal hense the payment terminals at docking stations with staffed bus rail air and ferry terminals offering cash payment choices too.

 

[ld0595]

A borris Bikes type scheme would work well in Scotland at High season IMO, docking at major transport hubs for rail, bus, air and ferry with contactless payment terminals and an app but baring in mind much of the highlands is hopeless for signal hense the payment terminals at docking stations with staffed bus rail air and ferry terminals offering cash payment choices too.

I think they have something like this called Bike&Go, although I don't know how easy it is for tourists to use since the website suggests you need a membership card. Not sure if you can get one at the station or not.

The website says it's available in Aberdeen, Dundee, Haymarket, Falkirk, Glasgow Central, Inverness, Kilmarnock, Largs, Linlithgow, Perth and Stirling at the moment.

 

[InOban]

No it wouldn't. The cyclists travelling to the Highlands are bringing their made to measure touring bikes laden with paniers and starting on a lengthy tour, returning often from a different station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No it wouldn't. The cyclists travelling to the Highlands are bringing their made to measure touring bikes laden with paniers and starting on a lengthy tour, returning often from a different station.

Indeed, the cycling requirement is different. Bozza bikes (or whatever you prefer to call them other than the blonde haired goon) work well in cities where they substitute for using your own bike on a short utility journey typically around a distributed city centre - an absolutely perfect fit for London, for example (we have some in MK too, though they aren't quite as well used and aren't quite as well-built as London's). You'd never do a tour on one, nor are you intended to.

 

[43096]

Bozza bikes (or whatever you prefer to call them other than the blonde haired goon)

Sadiq cycles now, perhaps?

 

[cf111]

I think they have something like this called Bike&Go, although I don't know how easy it is for tourists to use since the website suggests you need a membership card. Not sure if you can get one at the station or not.

The website says it's available in Aberdeen, Dundee, Haymarket, Falkirk, Glasgow Central, Inverness, Kilmarnock, Largs, Linlithgow, Perth and Stirling at the moment.

I have, quite literally, just walked past Stirling station to get to my hotel and had a look at the cycle point there. You can get a bike without a membership and can even download an app if the computer/totem isn't working!

 

[gunn13]

The Bike&Go Abellio scheme is separate and distinct from the nextbike/Council schemes in Glasgow and Stirling.

To access one of the Bike&Go bikes you need to sign up for a membership card. You then go to the booking office in the station and get the key to unlock the bike. You can keep it for something like 2/3 days max for a set fee. You can return it to any of the other Bike&Go stations throughout the country. Or something like that.
The nextbike schemes are unrelated.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Bike&Go Abellio scheme is separate and distinct from the nextbike/Council schemes in Glasgow and Stirling.

To access one of the Bike&Go bikes you need to sign up for a membership card. You then go to the booking office in the station and get the key to unlock the bike. You can keep it for something like 2/3 days max for a set fee. You can return it to any of the other Bike&Go stations throughout the country. Or something like that.
The nextbike schemes are unrelated.

When they first began operating in the UK, Abellio were quick to introduce these cycle schemes to several locations, including Leeds during their Northern stewardship. Of course cycling is never going to be like it is in The Netherlands outside of London and a handful of other cities, so the Dutch system of discouraging bikes being brought on board by charging for them is probably not appropriate. However with only 2 spaces per trainset, charges might be needed just to suppress demand.

 

[Altnabreac]

When they first began operating in the UK, Abellio were quick to introduce these cycle schemes to several locations, including Leeds during their Northern stewardship. Of course cycling is never going to be like it is in The Netherlands outside of London and a handful of other cities, so the Dutch system of discouraging bikes being brought on board by charging for them is probably not appropriate. However with only 2 spaces per trainset, charges might be needed just to suppress demand.

14 spaces per train set. 2 of which are usable at intermediate stations. Certainly on the HML the majority of bikes are going end to end so there will be plenty of capacity. I do think a couple of key intermediate stations (Perth, Dundee, Aviemore) allowing access to the DVTs would solve the problem.

 

[jopsuk]

That's all it needs- a procedure in place to allow them to be used at stations of obvious high demand (I'd add Stirling and Pitlochry to the list- but no more) and make booking mandatory and easy.

 

[jzw95]

Yesterday's debate in the Scottish Parliament on the cycle capacity of the refurbished HSTs:

http://www.scottishparliament.tv/20170524_members_business1

Cycle Capacity on Scotland's Railways - Scottish Parliament: 24 May 2017

That the Parliament notes the calls on Transport Scotland and ScotRail to reverse reported plans to reduce available cycle space on trains serving intermediate stations on the Edinburgh/Glasgow - Inverness and East Coast main lines; understands that, on 25 February 2015, the ScotRail Franchise Delivery Team informed a meeting at the Parliament that there would be improvements in 2018-19, with the introduction of four and five coach InterCity 125 High Speed Trains and an expectation that these would carry at least 20 cycles; further understands that the cycling campaign group, Spokes, has discovered that the increase in bike space has been gradually reduced, which means that, for the stations on these lines, there will be fewer spaces for cycles than at present; believes that almost all ScotRail trains are Class 170 Turbostars with four official bike spaces and that, although the new plans include a total of eight bike spaces, six can only be used at the termini, with only two spaces available for stations other than the departure and arrival points; notes the calls on Transport Scotland and the ScotRail Alliance to recognise the immense contribution that it considers cyclists bring to local economies, especially in the Highlands and the north east, and further notes the calls on the Scottish Government to bring pressure on Transport Scotland and ScotRail to reverse this decision and increase cycle space on Scotland’s railways, as it understands was promised in 2015.

I don't think the actual video of the debate has been posted yet, but presumably it will be soon.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Good this is being discussed. With the amount of tourism focus in the franchise its I feel needed and introducing access to the TGS at staffed intermediat stops shouldnt be a major issue. Stirling, Dundee and Perth are all city stations with platform staff anyway. No reason why where needed smaller but still staffed stations shouldnt offer the service in a joint bit of team working between train guard and booking office clark with a high vis and a briefing on safe opperation of the train door and cycle area?

 

[Clansman]

Good this is being discussed. With the amount of tourism focus in the franchise its I feel needed and introducing access to the TGS at staffed intermediat stops shouldnt be a major issue. Stirling, Dundee and Perth are all city stations with platform staff anyway. No reason why where needed smaller but still staffed stations shouldnt offer the service in a joint bit of team working between train guard and booking office clark with a high vis and a briefing on safe opperation of the train door and cycle area?

Scotrail were always asking for trouble by trying to enhance capacity, luggage and bike space in 4 carriages.

Was on a 170 (doubled with a 158) to Inverness the other week, a group of 5 all with bikes boarded at Kingussie and were lucky that there was space in both trains. How this could've been done in a HST under Scotrail's specifications, is beyond me.

 

[najaB]

Was on a 170 (doubled with a 158) to Inverness the other week, a group of 5 all with bikes boarded at Kingussie and were lucky that there was space in both trains. How this could've been done in a HST under Scotrail's specifications, is beyond me.

Unless I'm mistaken, at least one of the power cars would've been​ platformed at Kingussie. So as long as they aren't completely locked out of use they would have been able to accommodate unexpected loads like that (though with some time penalty).

 

[Clansman]

Unless I'm mistaken, at least one of the power cars would've been​ platformed at Kingussie. So as long as they aren't completely locked out of use they would have been able to accommodate unexpected loads like that (though with some time penalty).

Both power cars on a 5-car HST would fit fine into Kingussie, so in theory there's plenty of space for cycles at that station.

It's utterly pointless that Scotrail are trying to limit power car cycle storage to end stations only, as intermediate stations such as Kingussie see more cyclists the majority of the time.

In terms of dwell times, what's the acceleration rate of class 170s & 158s in comparison to let's say, a 5-car Grand Central HST? Obviously, if it was significantly higher, that'd give the TOC more flexibility to access the power cars at intermediate stations en route and still be able to make the time up. But then again it makes you wonder why Scotrail are against the idea in the first place.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The shortened HST wrakes will go like the proverbial brown stuff off the metal thing and I predict outpace a 170 from many standing starts. Which HML stations other than Aviemore are staffed?

 

[47271]

The shortened HST wrakes will go like the proverbial brown stuff off the metal thing and I predict outpace a 170 from many standing starts. Which HML stations other than Aviemore are staffed?

Pitlochry and Kingussie

 

[InOban]

Scotrail would be much keener on bikes if they were paid for, as they are in many other countries, including Abellio's home turf. The number of bike spaces is specified in the franchise, I think, but maybe they forgot to include access at intermediate stations.

 

[Rick1984]

What about creating a luggage and bike area in the power cars and fitting power doors, accessible at all times?

 

[Highland37]

Apologies if this has been covered, but what are the chances of the 20 bikes spaces being delivered? I have just dropped off my other half at Inverness for the Glasgow train. No space for bikes, as usual.

 

[Blindtraveler]

If the cycle spaces in the stripped out bogs plus the power car areas are all used then a good chance Id say but this is Scotrail we are talking about so anything could happen. Appologies to anyone who my sinical atitude may upset but so many of the promised improvements have been delayed or a pail shaddow of what was promised that I feel I have grounds.

Deeply regretable that once again the space for cycle was unavailable on the entirely unsuitable train some gormless suit once thought would be appropriate for a nearly 4 hour chug through the mountains in a tourism hot spot.

 

[Clansman]

To further strengthen the case for more luggage space, my train from Edinburgh to Perth yesterday (terminates at Inverness) was absolutely heaving once again. Consisting of a sole 170 (a disgrace), the foldable standard class seats midway through each carriage were filled right up to the luggage racks with suitcases, and the vestibules were serenaded with them also.

The problem goes wider than a solution when the HSTs come - something needs to change now otherwise the HSTs could be a victim of its own success when they eventually do arrive - where people realise that (in terms of bike spaces) they may not be as good as what they are cooked up to be. The same could apply to the 385s in some areas.

Looking at the seating plans of a 4-car HST for example, there is hardly anywhere additional bikes could go without removing a toilet or pulling back the passenger saloons extra 2-4 rows to allow the current bike spaces to be extended. The seating plans also show that the fixed luggage racks aren't much bigger than the current ones on the 170s - we can only hope that Scotrail know that they're doing that's for sure.

 

[Highland37]

Well said Clansman.

I am about to start a new job near Aviemore and I will commut from Inverness each day and use my bike to get to my job which is about five miles away.

The basic problem is that 170s, 158s and any other similar multiple unit are too short, too small and not suitable for long distance travel. They are not fit for purpose.

If you go to Austria, there is often a whole carriage for bikes. The constant do-the-minimum mentality is a failure.

 

[fgwrich]

Without drifting the topic off further, Providing adequate luggage and cycle space seems to be an ever increasing problem for our railways - at least the HSTs have a near adequate layout for intercity services at the moment. I really do fear that come the introduction of the 800s, the issues will just repeat on themselves again. The passenger saloon luggage racks look poor (think small 158 sized) while the bikes are supposed to end up in the shared "multi-use" area at the end of the coaches. Even down here that system fails with the 444s - which do have an Airport and 2 Ports to serve! Luggage will either end up on the seats, or bikes will block the vestibule - or not being simply carried at all. And I'm still not much clearer on what'll happen come the summer season where GW adds an extra coach into their HST sets for the Newquay services for luggage and Surfboards.

As for the ScotRail HSTs, as they are to use the ex FGW Trailers which had one lav removed for the cancelled trolley service stores, then there should be some affordable space to use in the form of those.

How many services up the HML are still worked by single DMUs? Even last summer during my trip to Inverness the following 170s were reported as full and standing.

 

[Clansman]

How many services up the HML are still worked by single DMUs? Even last summer during my trip to Inverness the following 170s were reported as full and standing.

Most services are operated by a single 170. With one or two services operated by doubled 158s. All 100mph timed workings are of a sole 170, whereas all 90mph are 158s either doubled or coupled with a 170 - the former being the most likely.

Although I hate to say it, to be fair, the doubled 158s are more suitable than the 170s on the HML in terms of general passenger experience, as long as it's the refurbished units with the large luggage racks halfway - a good load of luggage space, 4 bike spaces, and 4 toilets.

 

[Blindtraveler]

In a totally hypothetical world if Scotrail were to sauce another 30 or so 158s and run them in multiple to create an 8 coach formation then, refurbished they would be fine on the express work. The HSt will only and I stress ONLY work if there is full use made of every possible space for bags and bikes.

Anyway as already pointed out we are drifting a bit.

 

[Highland37]

More 158s? Dear god no!

Anything is better than them. The HSTs will be excellent in comparison but the cheapo attitude which means there will 4 car sets (how stupid) as well as 5 car means we will already be playing catchup when they begin.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well said Clansman.

I am about to start a new job near Aviemore and I will commut from Inverness each day and use my bike to get to my job which is about five miles away.

Have you considered purchasing a second bike to leave at Aviemore station? That's usual practice in the South East where there simply isn't the space for everyone to take a bike.

 

[ld0595]

To be fair with the luggage space concerns - many of the routes that the HSTs will serve will also have a substantial increase in capacity. For example, the HML will eventually go hourly and there will be a new Arbroath/Dundee to Glasgow stopper service which will help spread the load.

Not making excuses though, since the plans suggest that there has been a few shortcuts taken and the space doesn't seems to be fully utilised, so hopefully the criticisms will be listened to.

 

[NotATrainspott]

More 158s? Dear god no!

Anything is better than them. The HSTs will be excellent in comparison but the cheapo attitude which means there will 4 car sets (how stupid) as well as 5 car means we will already be playing catchup when they begin.

In the short term there are depot problems preventing wider use of 5 car sets. Adding a dozen or so Mk3 trailers to the fleet will not be a problem if passenger numbers do rise well above expectations.