Citizien of another country - prosecution

[Ceris]

Hello.
First of all, sorry for my non-perfect English.
I'm not a citizen of England, but an EU contry. Today I was stopped in train (I went to the wrong train... not important now). Ticket inspection really insisted, so I gave her address in England (I also provided her address in my family country). But it isn't mine, just my friend (I also gave her name of my friend). Now I think I made a mistake, but I was nervous. I don't want to receive letters on this address - I'm pretty sure after a few weeks I won't see England for at least a few years. Also I don't want to bother my friend. Of course I plan to mail the company, but is there anything more what me or my friend could do? I'm a little afraid that can be treated like trying to avoid fares (altrough I've already said them I'm ready to pay it and help with this case) by not providing local address. I'm even more afraid my friend can have some bad experiences about it. Can they ask her about this case, cause any inconvinients etc.?
The second thing is, if I won't receive my correspondence (I hope I will - as I said, I gave them my address in my country, my mail and my phone number) can I be, as non-England citizien, prosecuted? What can it cause to me? As I said, I won't plan to visit England again in next few years and even if will be some case against me it should be spent anyway, but still. For now I really want help to resolve this problem (even if I find ticket inspector rude :/).

 

[shredder1]

I`d be surprised if they bother you actually, I`ve have problems abroad through my ignorance of networks and systems, they usually either let you off or take payment on the day, if they can understand you. Can I ask which country do you come from?

 

[paddington]

Anybody in the world can be prosecuted in a UK court. Citizenship is not relevant.

But if you do not live in the UK then it would be difficult to enforce the result of the prosecution, especially if they don't know exactly who you are or where to find you.

You will not be arrested at the border or stopped by the police, unless you have committed a very serious crime such as terrorism. The European Arrest Warrant cannot be used unless the possible jail sentence exceeds 1 year.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What did the inspector say you had done wrong?

 

[cuccir]

Hello.
First of all, sorry for my non-perfect English.
I'm not a citizen of England, but an EU contry. Today I was stopped in train (I went to the wrong train... not important now).

If you can give us a short summary of what happened. Where and when were you travelling? What ticket did you hold? What went wrong? The reason for asking is that there are two main offences for travelling without a ticket and which of these the train company thinks has occurred will effect the advice!

Ticket inspection really insisted, so I gave her address in England (I also provided her address in my family country). But it isn't mine, just my friend (I also gave her name of my friend)... I'm even more afraid my friend can have some bad experiences about it. Can they ask her about this case, cause any inconvinients etc.?

As long as you gave your own name correctly, your friend will be fine. She may receive some letters in your name, but that is all. They won't chase her for the fare!

Now I think I made a mistake, but I was nervous. I don't want to receive letters on this address - I'm pretty sure after a few weeks I won't see England for at least a few years. Also I don't want to bother my friend. Of course I plan to mail the company, but is there anything more what me or my friend could do?

It is likely that the train company will write to you at her address. If she is a friend, I'd suggest letting her know that she might get some letters, and asking her to forward them to you. There is no need for her to be any more involved than this!

I'm a little afraid that can be treated like trying to avoid fares (altrough I've already said them I'm ready to pay it and help with this case) by not providing local address.

You've provided two addresses that you can be contacted at so that should be fine.

The second thing is, if I won't receive my correspondence (I hope I will - as I said, I gave them my address in my country, my mail and my phone number) can I be, as non-England citizien, prosecuted? What can it cause to me? As I said, I won't plan to visit England again in next few years and even if will be some case against me it should be spent anyway, but still.

Yes, you can be prosecuted. You're right to say that any sentence would be spent within 1 year of it being passed, so if you're not coming back for 2 years then it would not be in place. However if you're fined and don't pay, this may effect you if you wanted to live and work in the UK in the future. Equally, if you keep your correspondance, you could be prosecuted and pay the fine from your home country without any long term effect.

As people have noted, foreign nationals or tourists in many countries, including the UK, are often not prosecuted for minor offences such as this because of the hassle of actually getting people to pay the fine. Whether the train company will consider this or not I don't know.

 

[Ceris]

Hi.
As I said, I went to the bad train (another company). I was ready to pay a fare - it was only my stupidy fault, I don't know London very well, also I had stomach flu so I didn't think very clear - but the ticket inspector accused me that I falsed the ticket to avoid payment which is a crime. It is an absurd to me, I had a paid ticket on the same day to the same destination, no need to false it. I was ready to pay for this mistake.
Company is Greater Anglia, and I'm from Poland.
Of course I will tell my friend about this, but the thing which bothers me is if they won't have answer for me from this address (I'm not going to answer to letters send to her - maybe the first one, to ask them on official way to change an address, but handling with all this corespondance on her address I find too troublesome for her and me, I will ask her to return it to the sender with a note I don't live there anymore) and will be unable to contact me another way (as I said, they have my mail, but still, they really wanted an English address) or we will be unable to find an agreement, so I will be prosecuted and I will refuse to pay (I hope it won't happen, but just in case), someone (police or something) can go to her and ask her about me. I know it is unlikely and paranoic maybe, but this is first time when something like this happens to me. I don't like problems with law and much more I don't like when other people have problems because of me and worry about this or think about me bad .
I am not such worried about me - as I said, I'm not going to live in England now, and also I'm going to change my name and maybe surname too (not because of that reason, of course ) in future, so I don't think I will have problems because of that, even if I won't pay fine. But for now I hope it will be acceptable and I will be able to do it.
Thank you for your answers!

 

[AlterEgo]

People have missed the fact that the OP lied on two counts, one in giving the friend's address and one in giving the friend's name.

so I gave her [my] address in England (I also provided her [with my] address in my [family's] country). But it isn't mine [my address], just my friend (I also gave her [the] name of my friend).

[square brackets are my additions where I have filled in some missing words to help the post make a bit more sense]

Therefore it is the friend who will end up being pursued and not the OP.

(Some friend the OP is, huh?)

As the TOC have accepted those details then our advice should actually be directed toward the innocent but unseen friend. The friend should simply contact the TOC and explain it was not them travelling.

Everything else is therefore academic to the OP, because they aren't going to get pursued. My only advice to the OP is not to be a liar and not to drop your mates in it.

 

[Ceris]

Hi.
No, I didn't lied. I gave ticket inspector my name and my address in my home country. When she really wanted an address in England, I gave her my friend address when I stayed for a while. She asked me who else lives there, so I gave her my friend's name too. Now I think maybe she shouldn't ask about this.

 

[cuccir]

I do think we need some clarity AlterEgo as I also at first read the post in the same way, but I think (looking at context) the 'her' in that sentence is the revenue inspector. So my understanding:

Ticket inspection [inspector] really insisted, so I gave [to] her address in England (I also provided [to] her address in my family country). But it [the address in the UK] isn't mine, just my friend (I also gave [to] her name of my friend).

I say this because later on

I don't want to receive letters on this [the UK] address....
The second thing is, if I won't receive my correspondence (I hope I will - as I said, I gave them my address in my country, my mail and my phone number)

While it is possible to read the first sentence as saying that Ceris gave a completely false name (ie the friend's name) as her own, this doesn't seem to fit with these later two sentences which imply that she is receiving post to the friend's address, and that she also gave her own address in her own country and other contact details.

I agree, however, it would be useful if Ceris could clarify.

 

[Ceris]

Hi cuccir,
thank you for correcting me. I'm afraid some of this mistakes are my phone's fault, I should be more careful. Anyway, nice to learn something.
About your question - yes, now I see I wrote this very unclear. But as I said, I didn't lie. Ticket inspector knows my friend isn't me, I don't know why she ask me about her name (she called someone and checked my name - which is ok for me - and her name too, which I find strange and not very fair, she has nothing to do with this case).
I'm not very worried about me now. I hope I can resolve this case. But even the worst scenario, with court and big fine, would not affect me, as I won't be live an England (at least for now). I'm only worry about her. If only consequence will be letters, that's quite ok, she can send it back. I know of course she don't have to pay for me, I'm just worry if, for example, fine is very big so I will be unable to pay or if I won't responde on time (which is unfortunately possible, because I travel a lot), someone can go to her house, or write to her, questioned her about me, cause any other inconviniences etc. Is this possible?
I've already send the company e-mail, that I don't agree to sending letters on this address. They have many others details to contact me. Also I ask them to send me copied letters as e-mails, to be sure I will get it. I wanted to call them and tell about it too, but I think they don't know this case yet so maybe will be better wait for letter or some contact from them. Probably that's all what I can do.

 

[cuccir]

the ticket inspector accused me that I falsed the ticket to avoid payment which is a crime

So you took the wrong train - somewhere going to a different destination? And the ticket inspector accused you of having a faked ticket? That is potentially a more serious accusation.

I'm not going to answer to letters send to her - maybe the first one, to ask them on official way to change an address, but handling with all this corespondance on her address I find too troublesome for her and me, I will ask her to return it to the sender with a note I don't live there anymore)

This seems sensible. Reply to the first letter and in your response state that you can now be reached at your home address in Poland and will no longer be able to reply to any mail at the UK address.

If they then fail to keep in touch with you then there's a chance you might be prosecuted in your absence. However as you state, presuming you have no intention to come here to work/live, this is unlikely to effect you,

someone (police or something) can go to her and ask her about me. I know it is unlikely and paranoic maybe, but this is first time when something like this happens to me.

This seems unlikely. It is possible if you were fined that eventually baliffs might turn up at her address looking for you - but your friend can simply state that you're not there. There is no legal mechanism for blaming, charging or punishing your friend.

At the moment, there's probably not much else to say, as it's all ifs and maybes until the train company get in touch.

 

[cuccir]

Hi.
No, I didn't lied. I gave ticket inspector my name and my address in my home country. When she really wanted an address in England, I gave her my friend address when I stayed for a while. She asked me who else lives there, so I gave her my friend's name too. Now I think maybe she shouldn't ask about this.

Thanks for explaining. As long as you respond to the first correspondance and give them an updated address, this should not be a problem.

 

[Ceris]

Destination was the same. But it was a different company. I didn't realize, so I shown her my ticket and after she said it was wrong, I wanted to pay a fare or buy a new one, but she didn't let me and accused me of having faked ticket.
I know that nothing serious can happen to my friend, I just don't want her to be bother by baliffs, court or anything too. But maybe for now I try don't think about the worst possibility - I still hope it can be solved somehow. It is my first accident like that and also I think I did everything what I could with this address case. Nothing more than waiting.
Thank you for your advices.

 

[Qwerty133]

If Richard Branson can reply to post sent to London from a private island there is no reason OP can't reply to post sent to the UK from Poland, a country with a post service.

 

[[.n]]

So you took the wrong train - somewhere going to a different destination? And the ticket inspector accused you of having a faked ticket? That is potentially a more serious accusation.

I didn't read that as a faked ticket, I read that as a ticket to the wrong destination (because they had got on the wrong train).

 

[sheff1]

People have missed the fact that the OP lied on two counts, one in giving the friend's address and one in giving the friend's name.



[square brackets are my additions where I have filled in some missing words to help the post make a bit more sense]

Therefore it is the friend who will end up being pursued and not the OP.

(Some friend the OP is, huh?)

As the TOC have accepted those details then our advice should actually be directed toward the innocent but unseen friend. The friend should simply contact the TOC and explain it was not them travelling.

Everything else is therefore academic to the OP, because they aren't going to get pursued. My only advice to the OP is not to be a liar and not to drop your mates in it.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion ? It is pretty obvious to me that the OP gave their own correct address abroad (and a phone number as well) but for some bizarre reason the RPI wanted an address in England. The OP then gave the correct name and address of a friend who lives in England but made it clear that it was not the OP's address and any correspondence should be directed to their actual address abroad.



EDIT: I see the OP has confirmed my reading of situation

Hi.
No, I didn't lied. I gave ticket inspector my name and my address in my home country. When she really wanted an address in England, I gave her my friend address when I stayed for a while. She asked me who else lives there, so I gave her my friend's name too. Now I think maybe she shouldn't ask about this.

I really do not see how anyone could have come to any other conclusion.

 

[sheff1]

If Richard Branson can reply to post sent to London from a private island there is no reason OP can't reply to post sent to the UK from Poland, a country with a post service.

??
Nobody, including the OP, has said they can't.

 

[sheff1]

I didn't read that as a faked ticket, I read that as a ticket to the wrong destination (because they had got on the wrong train).

The OP says they got on the train of "another company", so it would appear they had a TOC-specific ticket but used a different TOC's train.

>>>>
A further point which may even warrant a new thread -

This is a least the third recent thread where an RPI has insisted on a UK address where the passenger lives abroad. This is just silly - on any given day there must be hundreds (if not thousands) of non-UK residents travelling on the UK rail network. What makes these RPIs think they all should have a UK address ?

 

[najaB]

This is a least the third recent thread where an RPI has insisted on a UK address where the passenger lives abroad. This is just silly - on any given day there must be hundreds (if not thousands) of non-UK residents travelling on the UK rail network. What makes these RPIs think they all should have a UK address ?

My suspicion is that it's because that's what the form that they are filling in asks for.

 

[MikeWh]

Posts by the OP from 1300 this afternoon have just been approved. They should now get posts displayed straight away, but please re-read the thread before making any further comments.

 

[northwichcat]

This is a least the third recent thread where an RPI has insisted on a UK address where the passenger lives abroad. This is just silly - on any given day there must be hundreds (if not thousands) of non-UK residents travelling on the UK rail network. What makes these RPIs think they all should have a UK address ?

I'd guess, if hypothetically the friend is called Joanna and the original poster is called Karolina then they'll send out a letter addressed to Karolina c/o Joanna. If that is the case it will mean Joanna has to cover the expense of sending the letter abroad and that the letter will get delayed getting to Karolina.

Of course, as usual, it would be best to agree to any out of court settlement offered to avoid prosecution and it should be noted that having a criminal record might prevent you from entering certain countries outside the EU.

I used public transport in another country last week and if any RPI had asked me for a local address, the only one I could have given would have been the address of the hotel.

 

[sheff1]

I'd guess, if hypothetically the friend is called Joanna and the original poster is called Karolina then they'll send out a letter addressed to Karolina c/o Joanna. If that is the case it will mean Joanna has to cover the expense of sending the letter abroad and that the letter will get delayed getting to Karolina.

Whereas if they sent the letter direct to the correct address abroad there would be no middleman/woman and no delay.

Many visitors will not have friends in the UK and would only be able to provide the address of a hotel etc which would be pretty pointless as I guess the vast majority of hotels would not forward mail addressed to a former guest.

 

[furlong]

What was the journey and what did the ticket say on it - which train company is the one that took the action? How did you buy the ticket? From a person or from a machine or the internet and was this restriction explained to you (which the seller is obliged to do)?

13.1 Some Tickets, particularly advance Tickets, require you to travel on a specific
train service or services, or the services of a particular Train Company or
Companies. We will make these conditions clear to you when you purchase
your Ticket.

What the company must do to make the restrictions clear might well depend on the purchaser and be different for a regular commuter and for a visitor to the country unfamiliar with the railway system here.

 

[AlterEgo]

How on earth did you come to that conclusion ? It is pretty obvious to me that the OP gave their own correct address abroad (and a phone number as well) but for some bizarre reason the RPI wanted an address in England. The OP then gave the correct name and address of a friend who lives in England but made it clear that it was not the OP's address and any correspondence should be directed to their actual address abroad.

If you read the opening post afresh, she only mentions giving her friend's name and not her own, and was concerned about the consequences for her friend.

The TOC certainly won't be writing abroad (if at all).

 

[northwichcat]

Many visitors will not have friends in the UK and would only be able to provide the address of a hotel etc which would be pretty pointless as I guess the vast majority of hotels would not forward mail addressed to a former guest.

Do they even have the guest's address in every case? I'm under the impression if you book via a third party like Expedia then the room is booked under Expedia's account with the hotel and the hotel is only given the guest name around a week before you check in.

 

[najaB]

Do they even have the guest's address in every case?

They might not, but legally they should. Hotels in the UK are required to record the details of any non-national residents.

 

[Mojo]

They might not, but legally they should. Hotels in the UK are required to record the details of any non-national residents.

Hotels are only required to store the name and nationality for all guests, and the passport number, place of issue, and next destination, for non-British, Irish and Commonwealth visitors.

 

[najaB]

Hotels are only required to store the name and nationality for all guests, and the passport number, place of issue, and next destination, for non-British, Irish and Commonwealth visitors.

Thanks. That certainly provides a TOC enough information - presuming their investigators are more Javert rather than Clouseau - to determine that the OP's friend wasn't the person who travelled and possibly enough to identify the OP and establish contact. Though, realistically, they would drop the matter once it was clear that it involved a non-national (unless they were *really* a Javert!)

 

[extendedpaul]

It's not clear which journey the OP was making but say it was Cambridge to or from London and they boarded a Greater Anglia train with a Great Northern ticket.

An easy mistake, particularly for an overseas visitor, and no apparent intention to deceive. Very hardline approach by the RPI whose actions may be wholly correct in law but in my opinion a case for discretion and an explanation of how we have many different rail companies here...

 

[Ceris]

Hello .
So, for all curious, my friend gave me a letter - sent quite quick, I think, it took only two weeks. And I send it back with request - I wanted them to e-mail me too, as I travel a lot and I can have difficiulties with getting next letter.
What I find totally irrational - I asked about thousand times in different ways about changing address, I told them that's not mine and I don't live in England -and when they sent me next letter by e-mail, it was still with my friend's address (I changed it in first letter when I wrote my details too). This is a total absurd for me.
Also they mentioned only about Byelaws, so probably didn't treated this like a big crime after all (I find fare too big, maybe because I don't work in England, but anyway).
Thank you all for your help .