Track saftey system problems between Havant and Guildford [24-25/05]

[infobleep]

There have been problems with the track safety systems affecting the up and down lines between Havant and Guildford.

Yesterday the system showed a train as being in a section between Witley and Haslemere, when it shouldn't have done. So the signalman had to go on site to investigate. It then happened on the down line at Liss. Which signal box or signal centre would cover those sections of track? Would they have had to walk the length of the sections between signals to check all is well?

They decided to run trains, with amendments and do a repair overnight. However overnight they couldn't find the fault so are now going check every section of the line. This will require road transport towards Havant and the closure of parts of the down line today after 10.30am. Hopefully they will find the fault then.

It will be interesting to know what the eventual fault is.

https://www.journeycheck.southwesttrains.co.uk/southwesttrains/

Due to a problem with the track safety system which stops two trains being in the same section of track at the same time between Havant and Guildford trains have to run at reduced speed on all lines.
What's Going On:
Train services running through these stations may be delayed by up to 20 minutes or revised. Disruption is expected until the end of the day.
What We're Doing About It:
At 10:37 on Wednesday 24 May, the track safety system between Witley and Haslemere stations showed incorrectly that there was a train occupying a section of track. This meant that the signalling system would not allow a second train to occupy the same section. To allow trains to proceed safely into the affected area the signal operator manually checked that the track was clear and verbally advise each train. This meant that trains were delayed whilst this process took place.
At 10:45 a similar issue occurred on the Waterloo-bound line at Liss station which required the signaller to manually check the track was clear and verbally give permission to each train to proceed. This created delays on the services towards Guildford.
Our engineers were unable to investigate the problems during the day yesterday without completely blocking the line in both directions. Our control room made the decision to continue running services as delayed and to complete the works overnight therefore still providing a train service between London and Portsmouth.
Investigation works occurred overnight and our team were not able to identify the root cause of the faults. As such the process of manually checking each section of track will continue into today, this will result in delays and alterations. Engineers have remained on site today and are continuing to work hard to rectify the problem.*
Our control centre are currently developing a plan to enable further works to be undertaken to the signalling system. This will likely start at around 10:30am and involve replacing services towards Havant with road transport for a part of the journey. We will update this message with more details as soon as they are known.
Until then, we have altered services running between London Waterloo and Portsmouth in both directions, so we advise you check you before you travel. Some services from Portsmouth Harbour to London Waterloo will be diverted via Eastleigh. Services between Haslemere and London Waterloo will not run between Guildford and Haslemere. Other trains may have to be cancelled, altered or revised at short notice. Some services may also be diverted via an alternative route or terminated and started back from different locations.

 

[pompeyfan]

To answer your question, it's a track circuit failure in which the signalling equipment is incorrectly detecting trains, it's two Haslemere signals between Witley and Haslemere on the down, and 2 up signals (controlled by Petersfield) at Liss and Liss Common. It's unusual to get 2 unrelated issues of exactly the same nature at the same place. I don't have info, but I would suspect the heat/sun has indirectly been the cause.

 

[Llanigraham]

I very much doubt that the signaller walked the sections.

 

[infobleep]

To answer your question, it's a track circuit failure in which the signalling equipment is incorrectly detecting trains, it's two Haslemere signals between Witley and Haslemere on the down, and 2 up signals (controlled by Petersfield) at Liss and Liss Common. It's unusual to get 2 unrelated issues of exactly the same nature at the same place. I don't have info, but I would suspect the heat/sun has indirectly been the cause.

Thanks for that. I did wonder if it was heat related.

I see they seem to have now fixed it. I wonder what the statistical odds are for the two unrelated events being of the same type? Maybe it is higher when it is hot.

They seem to have fixed it as the usual timetable seems to have resumed, abet with delays.

 

[infobleep]

How would the singler manually check the section of track is clear? Would they said one of the signal engineers out?

 

[GW43125]

How would the singler manually check the section of track is clear? Would they said one of the signal engineers out?

One of the S&T would probably either ride in the cab of a train or go for a walk.

 

[bramling]

There have been problems with the track safety systems affecting the up and down lines between Havant and Guildford.

Yesterday the system showed a train as being in a section between Witley and Haslemere, when it shouldn't have done. So the signalman had to go on site to investigate. It then happened on the down line at Liss. Which signal box or signal centre would cover those sections of track? Would they have had to walk the length of the sections between signals to check all is well?

They decided to run trains, with amendments and do a repair overnight. However overnight they couldn't find the fault so are now going check every section of the line. This will require road transport towards Havant and the closure of parts of the down line today after 10.30am. Hopefully they will find the fault then.

It will be interesting to know what the eventual fault is.

https://www.journeycheck.southwesttrains.co.uk/southwesttrains/

Why on earth can't they just say signalling problems?

Surely it's not hard for people to understand what that means.

 

[pompeyfan]

I'd have thought you'd send the first train through to inspect the line, and as soon as you get normal detection of that train further down the line, then you know it's safe to send the next train through.

 

[GW43125]

I'd have thought you'd send the first train through to inspect the line, and as soon as you get normal detection of that train further down the line, then you know it's safe to send the next train through.

That's what you do, but you have to fix it at some point

 

[swt_passenger]

Why on earth can't they just say signalling problems?

Surely it's not hard for people to understand what that means.

If they did people would come on here and ask why they weren't more specific. ISTM that cannot win whatever they say.

Tell people that a track circuit failure has occurred and the twitterati will then ask what a track circuit is...

 

[Jonfun]

Meh, it might not be perfect but they've made an effort at least to explain the problem and how they're resolving it in language the average passenger can understand. Fair play to them.

 

[pompeyfan]

Whatever it is, it's not a simple fix, disruption on the down expected until the end of the day with only 3 services between 2 and 5pm going via the direct apparently.

 

[Llanigraham]

I'd have thought you'd send the first train through to inspect the line, and as soon as you get normal detection of that train further down the line, then you know it's safe to send the next train through.

Exactly what we did, and if I remember rightly what the Rule Book says.
We would certainly NOT be walking the line!

 

[infobleep]

If they did people would come on here and ask why they weren't more specific. ISTM that cannot win whatever they say.

Tell people that a track circuit failure has occurred and the twitterati will then ask what a track circuit is...

Personally I like the level of detail they provided and think it was about right.

I see thay the problem hasn't been resolved yet. Perhaps they thought they had found it and they hadn't. It is technology after all.

I see that the 2pm, 4pm and 5pm Waterloo services were run via Haslemere to Portsmouth but not the 3pm or any others it seems. Why would those need to run via Haslemere and not be diverted, unlike the others? I'm sure it's for operational reasons. I may have to look up their working diagrams via Real Time Trains later to find out more.

 

[rebmcr]

I see that the 2pm, 4pm and 5pm Waterloo services were run via Haslemere to Portsmouth but not the 3pm or any others it seems. Why would those need to run via Haslemere and not be diverted, unlike the others?

#1 likelihood will be differing route knowledge of various trains' traincrew.

 

[godfreycomplex]

#1 likelihood will be differing route knowledge of various trains' traincrew.

Exactly correct - for example the 15:00 is worked by a Guildford crew who don't sign beyond Pirbright Junction, which is very annoying. Around the middle of the day as the early turn Fratton crews finish there's a bit of a gap before the late ones start, which is where others fill in

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Exactly correct - for example the 15:00 is worked by a Guildford crew who don't sign beyond Pirbright Junction, which is very annoying. Around the middle of the day as the early turn Fratton crews finish there's a bit of a gap before the late ones start, which is where others fill in

Blame the short sighted bean counters for that as they used to.

 

[dviner]

Why on earth can't they just say signalling problems?

... or even "Operational Incident"

 

[lineclear]

One of the S&T would probably either ride in the cab of a train or go for a walk.

When a track circuit fails to clear or shows occupied for some other reason, the line must be examined (unless the signaller is sure the line is not obstructed). This can be achieved by one of the following:

• The signaller can see the line is safe for trains to pass.
• A competent person can check that the line is safe for trains to pass.
• The driver of a train passing over the affected line can check that the line is safe for trains to pass.

See TS1 20.1/20.2.

The latter option is the most commonly used by far, but the line can indeed be examined by signallers or by staff walking the length of the affected section.

 

[embers25]

Got 1630 from Waterloo that took 3 hours to get to Pompey and more annoyingly we were left to fester at Hook whilst the next 3 trains went pas us on the fast line delaying us a further 20 minutes unnecessarily

 

[pompeyfan]

Got 1630 from Waterloo that took 3 hours to get to Pompey and more annoyingly we were left to fester at Hook whilst the next 3 trains went pas us on the fast line delaying us a further 20 minutes unnecessarily

I think that might have had something to do with Eastleigh being blocked for a while due to a broken Freightliner, they would much rather have you at a platform.

 

[infobleep]

Well it is definitely a serious problem because the incident was updated shortly after 6am do say delays for up to 20 minutes or cancellations diversions etc. Until the end of today.

The 5.09 Guildford to Portsmouth Habour service, left 25 minutes Kate and got to Petersfield 51 minutes late. All the stops between Petersfield and Fritton have been cancelled and it's terminating there.

There are currently no diversions showing but I'm sure they will be in place as and when necessary.

I was only thinking recently how reliable the service seems to have been of late.

 

[infobleep]

On the 25 May, after being unsuccessful in finding the fault, engineers remained on site and closed the line for more investigation. These investigations have been continuing all night but so far our teams have not been able to identify the root cause of the fault. Overnight teams have replaced several key pieces of track equipment and re welded rail joints in order to attempt to fix the circuit.*
The process of manually checking each section of track will continue today and will result in delays and alterations. Engineers will remain on site and are working hard to rectify the problem.

https://www.journeycheck.southwesttrains.co.uk/southwesttrains/

It's intretsing to note that the 7.30 Waterloo to Portsmouth Habour service is being delayed due to making extra stops because of a cancelled train. However 7.15 if running and in its normal route and isn't showing any stops as cancelled.

I see Milford and Witley were cancelled from the 8.00 service but that was probably a mistake as they are showing on the 8.43 stopper to Portsmouth and Southsea. Althoufh even that claims there are extra stops. Maybe because it splits off the 8.00, it picks up that message.

 

[pompeyfan]

Some trains were making it down the down in as little as 6 minutes, so I think the real issue is a normal track circuit failure which is being hampered by the signaller only have 1 person in the box so can only speak to 1 train at any one time.

 

[RichardN]

Yesterday morning, I think one operational mistake was not to add a Worplesdon stop order on the 08:20 Guildford - Waterloo stopping service. There were lots of passengers waiting and I don't think they had a realistic chance of boarding anything that had started further south than Guildford. As it was, that service sailed past a busy platform while it still had empty seats and got stopped outside Woking for the time it would have lost by stopping.

 

[godfreycomplex]

I was only thinking recently how reliable the service seems to have been of late.

So it was you who jinxed it then!!

 

[infobleep]

So it was you who jinxed it then!! [emoji38][emoji38]

Quite. I see today the first train to be diverted was the 9am Waterloo to Portsmouth. Intrestingly the first diverted train north wasn't until the 10.24 from Portsmouth and Southsea.

There seems to be a different pattern of diversions today, compared to yesterday. That is good if so because it means they are not delaying the same passengers each day. That is one of the things South West Trains said they did in one of their live web chats, I. E. change who is affected by delays by not always cancelling the same services each time.

 

[infobleep]

I see they have decided to introduce a timetable of what trains are running or not stopping where.

I see the problem is now between Godalming and Liss. Also no mention of what they did the previous days.

Here is hoping they resolve it soon. The general timetsble doesn't take into account services that don't fit the below times but you always get that during disruption as not all train times across day, even off peak, conform.

Due to a problem with the system which manages train services through a section of track between Godalming and Liss trains have to run at reduced speed on all lines.
What's Going On:
Train services running through these stations may be cancelled, delayed by up to 30 minutes or revised. Disruption is expected until the end of the day.
What We're Doing About It:
Due to a problem with the system which monitors the passage of trains through sections of track between Godalming and Liss, trains have to run at reduced speed stopping several times to gain verbal permission to continue from the signaller. This problem affects trains in both directions. This process causes delays of up to 30 minutes to services and, in order to reduce these delays and congestion, it is necessary to alter services. These alterations include cancellations, diversion via Eastleigh and terminating trains at different locations from normal.
Once the problem has been resolved there will be a phased re-introduction of services. Until then the following alterations to services will be necessary:
Portsmouth Bound services:
XX:00 train services from London Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour will be diverted via Eastleigh running non-stop between Woking and Fratton.
XX:15 train services from London Waterloo to Haslemere will terminate at Guildford and will call additionally at Worplesdeon.
XX:30 train services from London Waterloo will run as normal.
XX:45 train services from London Waterloo to Haslemere will call additionally at Milford and Witley
London Bound services:
XX:15 train services from Portsmouth Harbour to London Waterloo will be diverted via Fareham running non-stop between Fratton and Woking.
XX:45 train services from Portsmouth Harbour will terminate at Guildford.
XX:24 train services from Portsmouth and Southsea will run as normal but call additionally at Witley and Milford but NOT Worplesdon and Clapham Junction.

 

[infobleep]

The fault has now been fixed. Assuming the information is not sensitive, anyone able to say what the fault was. Probably something complicated or difficult to locate.

Thanks to those who helped to fix it.

Now one of the Weymouth bound lines is blocked around Farnborough, due to a points failure. Your colleagues for that area will now be busy.

 

[godfreycomplex]

The fault has now been fixed. Assuming the information is not sensitive, anyone able to say what the fault was. Probably something complicated or difficult to locate.

Thanks to those who helped to fix it.

Now one of the Weymouth bound lines is blocked around Farnborough, due to a points failure. Your colleagues for that area will now be busy.

I'm not sure exactly as I booked off and went on holiday shortly before it was fixed, but I believed it was a cascading voltage issue; not helped by squashed insulating block joints owing to the heat. It was complex and difficult to locate, perhaps a little less complex than it ended up being, but there we are.