Manchester Arena Incident (22/05/2017)

[Railops]

Remembrance for those that were killed and injured.

Agreed but also to "send a message" that Manchester is united and won't be defeated which was said yesterday.

My point is that message will only be seen as an admission of weakness.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It is entirely possible to be absolutely furious at what has happened, and still show solidarity and compassion.

I don't disagree (and my condolences to those who've lost loved ones I should add), but it's just the rinse and repeat, standard carbon copy response. It can show all the solidarity it wishes to, it doesn't make the slightest difference to anything sadly.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't disagree (and my condolences to those who've lost loved ones I should add), but it's just the rinse and repeat, standard carbon copy response. It can show all the solidarity it wishes to, it doesn't make the slightest difference to anything sadly.

Indeed, it almost comes across as insincere. I am very uncomfortable with how we as a society react to this sh*t.

 

[Tetchytyke]

My point is that message will only be seen as an admission of weakness.

Will it? By whom? ISIS? Quite frankly, I couldn't give a flying **** what they think.

But, more importantly, with this type of atrocity there isn't anyone to be "strong" towards. The guy who did it is dead. The police are hunting the people who helped him, and one has to hope they are caught quickly.

Beyond that, what else? Bomb ISIS? The senior people behind ISIS are the same people who were in al Qaeda and who were in the Ba'ath Party in Iraq before that. They've had plenty of bombs dropped on their heads, and they're still here.

Or we could retreat into a police state? 299 people were killed in Russian apartment bombings in 1999, and regardless of whether you believe the Chechens did it or whether it was an FSB false flag operation, we can't really say that the police state did much to stop it.

If there was a simple answer it would have been achieved by now. The simple fact is the price we have to pay for our freedom is that these types of atrocities will occasionally happen. All we can show is that we will not back down in fear. We'll do what we've always done.

 

[NSEFAN]

Agreed but also to "send a message" that Manchester is united and won't be defeated which was said yesterday.

My point is that message will only be seen as an admission of weakness.

How so? The crazy people who join the cause ISIS want division, so don't give it to them. A message of unity shows that such attacks are ultimately pointless.

This of course doesn't stop the government taking intervening action in the mean time to prevent future attacks.

 

[northwichcat]

I will just go about my business normally, I will not be dictated to by evil. I would however think very carefully about where I took children, I just cannot imagine what some parents who took their children to see Ariana Grande are going to have to live with.

More victims have been named and those who have loved ones missing must be waiting for the inevitable.

I don't know how many Manchester or UK dates there were for Ariana Grande's tour but I imagine there's going to be a lot of people feeling either cursed that they/their children had tickets for Monday night or relieved that they/their children had tickets for another night. Even those who got out injury free might still suffer from PTSD.

 

[AlterEgo]

How so? The crazy people who join the cause ISIS want division, so don't give it to them. A message of unity shows that such attacks are ultimately pointless.

This of course doesn't stop the government taking intervening action in the mean time to prevent future attacks.

My belief is that ISIS do not really want division or have any strategic objectives beyond killing the infidel. It is definitely possible to overthink this.

They are an organisation in retreat at present and it would be sad and useless to feel scared by them.

 

[Railops]

How so? The crazy people who join the cause ISIS want division, so don't give it to them. A message of unity shows that such attacks are ultimately pointless.

This of course doesn't stop the government taking intervening action in the mean time to prevent future attacks.

Do you really think a few people singing songs and holding hands and showing unity will convince ISIS that attacking us is pointless. As we have been holding hands, lighting candles and wearing tee shirts for some time why are Islamic terrorists still attacking us ?
These vigils might give some people a bit of comfort but ultimately are utterly pointless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know how many Manchester or UK dates there were for Ariana Grande's tour but I imagine there's going to be a lot of people feeling either cursed that they/their children had tickets for Monday night or relieved that they/their children had tickets for another night. Even those who got out injury free might still suffer from PTSD.

Thinking back to 1996 I would certainly say I had mild PTSD after that even though nobody was killed. It was a kind of feeling of "why did I get away with it" (even though everyone did), "how could it have been different", and obsessive reading of the news. Only lasted a few days, but equally the event was far less traumatic than this.

I will certainly never forget a large plate glass window moving almost a foot right next to me. Good job it didn't break.

(It was the building where the kitchen design centre is now here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4...j2dLQNJYBz9T6i64xdZw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

though it was at the time a Harley Davidson motorcycle dealership)

 

[BestWestern]

It's worth remembering that, whilst we aren't big on aggressive retaliation, the security services stop a great deal of terrorist activity before it gets off the ground, which is arguably the most valuable weapon in the arsenal. Granted we can't catch them all, and of course they use smaller scale, seemingly random attacks rather a lot now as they're harder to detect, but a lot of good work is done behind the scenes.

That isn't to say I don't agree that we could do more. "Enemy of the state" is a decent enough reason for a swift and permanent deportation in my book, or failing that a long stay in a forbidding prison. And being a British citizen shouldn't make any difference to that, it doesn't change the threat they pose.

 

[Tetchytyke]

My belief is that ISIS do not really want division or have any strategic objectives beyond killing the infidel.

However exclusion from society is their biggest recruitment tool. Look at all the people who've done these things: they've all been narcissistic deadbeats.

Blaming "Muslims" and retaliating against Islamic communities who have nothing to do with it is only going to make recruitment easier.

These vigils might give some people a bit of comfort but ultimately are utterly pointless.

It says more about you than anyone else that you see comfort in grieving as "utterly pointless".

 

[backontrack]

It's not naïve to want a better world, or to believe that we can create one.

It's naïve to be cynical about it. It's naïve to believe that nothing will ever get better and that we will always have to live like this.

 

[EM2]

It can show all the solidarity it wishes to, it doesn't make the slightest difference to anything sadly.

So what do you do instead? I've got bills to pay, and a roof to keep over my head. All I can do is carry on like I've always done.

 

[NSEFAN]

Do you really think a few people singing songs and holding hands and showing unity will convince ISIS that attacking us is pointless. As we have been holding hands, lighting candles and wearing tee shirts for some time why are Islamic terrorists still attacking us ?
These vigils might give some people a bit of comfort but ultimately are utterly pointless.

If the point of the attack is to create division in society, then why should we accept this? What's to be gained by increasing divisions between neighbouring communities? Instead we can actively work against it and not let the pathetic, miserable losers drag all of society down with their medieval methods of problem solving.

And again, this doesn't stop government from doing something about ISIS whilst the public try to get on with their lives.

 

[BestWestern]

It's not naïve to want a better world, or to believe that we can create one.

It's naïve to be cynical about it. It's naïve to believe that nothing will ever get better and that we will always have to live like this.

Humankind has always lived in a world divided by greed, religion and ideology. When has it ever not been so? A group hug and a happily ever after is not going to happen I'm afraid.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

So what do you do instead? I've got bills to pay, and a roof to keep over my head. All I can do is carry on like I've always done.

Oh no, in that regard absolutely carry on doing what you've done for however long. I'm on about the reaction we have to the individual events.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Humankind has always lived in a world divided by greed, religion and ideology. When has it ever not been so? A group hug and a happily ever after is not going to happen I'm afraid.

Indeed.

 

[EM2]

Oh no, in that regard absolutely carry on doing what you've done for however long. I'm on about the reaction we have to the individual events.

We shouldn't remember those that have suffered?

 

[Dave1987]

Innocent ordinary people including children are killed. Military personnel deployed to protect...... Buckingham Palace and Westminster!! It's clear who really matters in this country and it isn't ordinary people. As long as the politicians and Royals are protected eh. If little George had been killed there would be hell to pay. Give it a few days and all these extra police will disappear again. Why does it take the slaughter of innocent children for politicians to wake up and stop worrying about themselves and their own lives.

 

[Darandio]

It's naïve to be cynical about it. It's naïve to believe that nothing will ever get better and that we will always have to live like this.

How is it naïve? Can you see an end to this? If not, what realistically can be done further than what is already being done? It would be naïve to think that one day it will all just go away.

It may seem like a very glass half empty attitude, but I have three young children, what sort of a world are they going to grow up in to? It's bad enough now, what could it be like 10 years down the line?

 

[EM2]

Innocent ordinary people including children are killed. Military personnel deployed to protect...... Buckingham Palace and Westminster!! It's clear who really matters in this country and it isn't ordinary people. As long as the politicians and Royals are protected eh. If little George had been killed there would be hell to pay. Give it a few days and all these extra police will disappear again. Why does it take the slaughter of innocent children for politicians to wake up and stop worrying about themselves and their own lives.

That's not what it is for. The military are taking over roles normally covered by the police. That frees police personnel to investigate the threats that have been received and act on them if necessary.
The reason it'll disappear 'in a few days' is because it's unsustainable. You cannot expect people to work constant twelve-hour shifts at a high level of alertness.

 

[Antman]

Innocent ordinary people including children are killed. Military personnel deployed to protect...... Buckingham Palace and Westminster!! It's clear who really matters in this country and it isn't ordinary people. As long as the politicians and Royals are protected eh. If little George had been killed there would be hell to pay. Give it a few days and all these extra police will disappear again. Why does it take the slaughter of innocent children for politicians to wake up and stop worrying about themselves and their own lives.

This is ridiculous, the reason military personnel are guarding Buckingham Palace and the like is to free up police officers and get them out on the street protecting everyone.

 

[Dave1987]

That's not what it is for. The military are taking over roles normally covered by the police. That frees police personnel to investigate the threats that have been received and act on them if necessary.
The reason it'll disappear 'in a few days' is because it's unsustainable. You cannot expect people to work constant twelve-hour shifts at a high level of alertness.

The Royals and senior politicians get round the clock protection. What do innocent children get? Kind words after they have been killed. Sorry but seeing innocent people get killed while politicians are worried about themselves in their own little bubble really annoys me. After the Westminster attack the extra policing lasted about a day or so. Yet the politicians demanded a review into the policing at Westminster, the most closely guarded bit of land in the entire country. People who matter are guarded 24/7 the rest are seemingly expendable.

 

[Antman]

I don't know how many Manchester or UK dates there were for Ariana Grande's tour but I imagine there's going to be a lot of people feeling either cursed that they/their children had tickets for Monday night or relieved that they/their children had tickets for another night. Even those who got out injury free might still suffer from PTSD.

I would imagine those that escaped uninjured will be going through all sorts of emotions including feeling guilty that they survived and others didn't, even adults would have difficulty coping with it let alone children.

And how must Ariana Grande herself be feeling? It still seems unclear whether her planned show at the o2 will go ahead.

 

[Dave1987]

This is ridiculous, the reason military personnel are guarding Buckingham Palace and the like is to free up police officers and get them out on the street protecting everyone.

For how long? A few days? A week maybe? Once the press focus dies down do you really expect the police presence to continue?

 

[EM2]

The Royals and senior politicians get round the clock protection. What do innocent children get? Kind words after they have been killed.

So you want the military on the streets, in every town and city, all day every day? No thanks.

 

[Howardh]

The Royals and senior politicians get round the clock protection. What do innocent children get? Kind words after they have been killed. Sorry but seeing innocent people get killed while politicians are worried about themselves in their own little bubble really annoys me. After the Westminster attack the extra policing lasted about a day or so. Yet the politicians demanded a review into the policing at Westminster, the most closely guarded bit of land in the entire country. People who matter are guarded 24/7 the rest are seemingly expendable.

Problem is, 99.999999% of the population aren't targets, and those killed were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
In the IRA days they targeted high-profile people, Airey Nieve, Lord Mountbatten, the Tory hotel etc etc and if we didn't protect our MP's, then who would want to be an MP?
Obviously than means if those wilt ill intent can't "get at" high profile targets, then they will attack us instead.
Then it's just a balance of probabilities, to secure ourselves as best as possible, and just like flying, hope for the best.
Chances of being killed by a terrorist, or by a car as a pedestrian? Both should be zero..but we live in the real world.
However, if someone argued that the protection of Parliament, MP's VIP's etc is over the top and too costly I could listen to that argument, but that's for a different day.

 

[Antman]

For how long? A few days? A week maybe? Once the press focus dies down do you really expect the police presence to continue?

I don't know but the police would then go back to guarding Buckingham Palace and such like and the military would return to their normal duties. I don't see what you are objecting to?

 

[Dave1987]

So you want the military on the streets, in every town and city, all day every day? No thanks.

Nope just a proper police presence will do.

 

[Antman]

Nope just a proper police presence will do.

And that's exactly what we're getting.