Three Bridges to Carlisle - routeng, tickets & breaking...

[mark_hammond75]

The main reason for this post is with regards to a trip from Three Bridges to Carlisle, on an off peak return - leaving on either Friday the 20th and returning either the following Monday or Tuesday. I’ve got a few questions about route validity, train / timetable validity and breaking of journeys.

Firstly routing validity. I’m fairly sure that on the London -> Carlisle side of the trip I can travel via Manchester, Birmingham or Sheffield (maps LM or MM). Now that’s good, as I’ve friends in these cities and I’d like to have a Friday night out . From a routing perspective, does anyone think I’ve got a problem here? (The Sheffield route would have the added bonus of taking in the Settle to Carlisle route).

The second thing to worry about then, is breaking my route. In Avantix Traveller the ticket restriction is 5F (unless travelling from Kings Cross & Stevenage where it’s 1W). It seems to suggest that as long as I don’t travel from Kings Cross I can break my journey on the outward portion. Unfortunately Virgin’s website it says that for an off peak ticket “Break of Journey not allowed on Virgin Train services on the outward leg of the journey” (http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/buy_tickets/tickets_explained/offpeak.aspx). This seems to disagree with the fares manual.

Now, here’s the interesting part - time table restrictions. As long as i’m not travelling out of Kings Cross, the outward restriction is:

DEPART: LONDON EUSTON
At or after 0905.
DEPART: MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL
At or after 0900
DEPART: WATFORD JUNCTION
At or after 0900

So this would suggest that I can use my off peak ticket on the trains to Manchester or Birmingham timetabled to leave between 1514 and 1812. In fact, the online Journey Planner seems to support this. I guess the main problem would be convincing the guard!

As an aside if anyone was wanting to travel in the peak afternoon hours to Manchester, why not get a saver to Lancaster for a few quid more, sit back and relax on a much quieter train than the 18:40.

One thing the restrictions don’t mention is St Pancras. So what’s going on here? Tickets to Manchester show that they can’t be used between 1559 and 1901 out of St Pancras, but does such restriction apply to tickets to Carlisle- if so how do I know?

One big question is therefore, from the fares manual it would seem that I could use any afternoon peak time train out of any London terminal (excluding Kings Cross) as long as it was on a valid route?

Cheers,

Mark

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Some interesting points raised here.

As regards travelling north from St. Pancras, to connect into a train from Leeds to Carlisle via Settle, you would have to leave London well before the 1559 peak restriction time kicks-in, as the last direct train from Leeds to Carlisle via Settle leaves at something like 1756, unless you are wanting to stop overnight in Leeds that is.

As regards travelling north from Euston, Virgin publish an information leaflet entitled “Is your Off-Peak ticket valid?” Haven't got a copy to hand, but I as I recall it says that you can travel to Carlisle on any off peak northbound train after 0905 and that it definitely also mentions that you can also travel on a few direct "peak" trains during the afternoon (i.e. trains to Preston and beyond at 1530, 1630, 1730 and 1830).

Not sure if this means that you can travel northbound on "peak" trains via Manchester or Birmingham with a ticket to Carlisle. Any thoughts, folks?

N.B. Not sure if the peak hours at Euston that you mention (for Northbound travel between 1514-1812) is up-to-date.

One other thing: Routing from Kings Cross to Carlisle via Newcastle is, as far as I am aware, not permitted.

 

[mark_hammond75]

With respect to St Pancras to Sheffield, if I can break my journey on the outward portion then surely I could be leaving to get to Sheffield bang on the evening peak (asuming that I want to get there in time for a few pints in the Devonshire Cat), then continue on up to Carlisle the next morning?

It's difficult to test the whole breaking of journey thing on the journey planner as it doesn't let you specify a break

 

[yorkie]

Well I guess they think don't need the STP restrictions given that they say that "Break of journey is not permitted, except to change trains. " although the way that is worded is bizarre - changing trains is NOT a break of journey! But even that is flawed as if you get to Leeds and there is no onward connection then you are allowed to stay overnight. The shortest route is ALWAYS valid and the ECML and the S&C is the shortest route, but I think the MML and S&C may not be far behind.

Anyway get a ticket to Gretna Green. Same price and "valid on any train", it used to be any train from any terminal but I think they've now added that if going from King's Cross 9D applies which prevents you leaving King's Cross at peak time.

 

[PhilipW]

Gosh, how complicated.

.... and the general public is expected to know all this ? I think not.

 

[mark_hammond75]

Gretna you say? That sounds like a plan to me, break of journey allowed and any train! Now, will the staff on the gates at St Pancras let me through?

Thanks

 

[me123]

They should do. Map MM allows the whole journey (I think) so you shouldn't have a problem at all. If you do, ask them to check it up. This might take a while due to the plethora of routes available, but they should come to the conclusion that it's a perfectly permissible route.

Re this Gretna ticket, as long as you go out of St. P you're unrestricted. I've got NFM02, and it's showing that Carlisle and Gretna have exactly the same restrictions. Can someone clarify if this is true? The one in the fares manual is restricted 5F, same as for Carlisle. There is a slightly more expensive ticket, however, that's valid seemingly on all trains from Euston that's not in the fares manual (as far as I can see), but NXEC will happily sell me it.

 

[yorkie]

Gretna you say? That sounds like a plan to me, break of journey allowed and any train! Now, will the staff on the gates at St Pancras let me through?

Thanks

They have to - it's a valid route! But expect them not to know that a) it's a valid route and b) that the ticket is valid at any time. Both of which they can look up (and they will either have to look it up or accept it).

 

[mark_hammond75]

Well, here's a turn up for the books. Even though Avantix says that the Gretna ticket is valid for a break of journey on the outward portion, NRE says it's not, and pointed me to here: http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/pj/trp?ticketTypeCode=SVR
Take not of the (Please note Outward Break of Journey is not permitted on Virgin Trains) bit.

But what exactly does this mean? Does it mean that if i travel on any Virgin train then I surrender my outward break? Or, does it mean that I can't join a Virgin train on the morning after? Doesn't seem very simple to me, let alone enforceable!

When did this crazy Virgin rule come in? I've used the outward break on Virgin before, without any problems...

 

[yorkie]

Either Avantix is wrong or NRES is wrong. The top-secret staff-only FRPP can prove either way, as apparently (though, I suspect not lawfully) it can overrule the rules given to the public. I suspect this would be laughed out of court if it ever got that far.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Either Avantix is wrong or NRES is wrong. The top-secret staff-only FRPP can prove either way, as apparently (though, I suspect not lawfully) it can overrule the rules given to the public. I suspect this would be laughed out of court if it ever got that far.

FRPP says

Validity
Code 9B

Code used to destinations in Scotland*

Restriction 9D also applies from/via Kings Cross and Stevenage. Note: No break of journey allowed on outward travel from London Kings Cross and Stevenage.

------------------------

JOURNEYS FROM/VIA LONDON

(including Stevenage and Watford Junction)

Available as listed below MONDAYS-FRIDAYS (By any train on other days)

Valid by any train

Code 9D is for stations in England (except Berwick on Tweed) and comes under the super off peak restrictions.

 

[mark_hammond75]

Well I'm still confused as to whether or not I can break my outward Journey. If I travel on Thursday night to Sheffield, can I continue the next morning via Leeds and Settle? I've sent an email to NRE - but in my experience you have to ask them 3 or 4 times before you get a reasoned response from them

Also, if I've got an Off Peak return to Gretna I'm not convinced the staff at St Pancras will let me board a train in the afternoon peak - has anyone got any tips for making sure that they do? If they don't let me board a train what recourse have I got?

Cheers