Corbyn and British Rail plans

[RUUDBOY]

Hi all,

With Labours manisfesto stating they'd look to take rail franchises back into public hands if they win the general election, I wanted to know people's thoughts on how that would effect driver/staff pay, pension and working practices if British Rail was brought back?
Anyone previously in the industry before privatization with any thoughts?
I'm currently in a talent pool trying to get started as a trainee driver, so just wondering how a labour win might impact future prospects...

 

[Surreytraveller]

Its all pre-election nonsense. Happens every 4 or 5 years. Ignore. In fact, for a grade like driver, privatisation drove up wages as it created competition between companies for trained staff. It also means if you get sacked by one company, you can go and work for another. That wouldn't happen in BR days.

 

[6Gman]

Hi all,

With Labours manisfesto stating they'd look to take rail franchises back into public hands if they win the general election, I wanted to know people's thoughts on how that would effect driver/staff pay, pension and working practices if British Rail was brought back?
Anyone previously in the industry before privatization with any thoughts?
I'm currently in a talent pool trying to get started as a trainee driver, so just wondering how a labour win might impact future prospects...

Might make the job more interesting at certain locations as you might work a wider variety of routes and stock.

But it ain't going to happen

 

[djsmith200]

Its all pre-election nonsense. Happens every 4 or 5 years. Ignore. In fact, for a grade like driver, privatisation drove up wages as it created competition between companies for trained staff. It also means if you get sacked by one company, you can go and work for another. That wouldn't happen in BR days.

does that mean drivers would tend to be against nationalisation then?

 

[Mag_seven]

does that mean drivers would tend to be against nationalisation then?

Don't know about drivers generally but their Union (ASLEF) is for it:

http://www.aslef.org.uk/article.php?group_id=5508

"We especially welcome the promise to bring Britain’s railways back into public ownership – a policy on which ASLEF has campaigned passionately ever since John Major’s ill-starred privatisation of British Rail in 1994 – and freeze passenger fares across the network."

 

[Surreytraveller]

does that mean drivers would tend to be against nationalisation then?

No. But people never look at the arguments sensibly. They just jump on bandwagons.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Hi all,

With Labours manisfesto stating they'd look to take rail franchises back into public hands if they win the general election, I wanted to know people's thoughts on how that would effect driver/staff pay, pension and working practices if British Rail was brought back?
Anyone previously in the industry before privatization with any thoughts?
I'm currently in a talent pool trying to get started as a trainee driver, so just wondering how a labour win might impact future prospects...

Labour's not going to form a majority government, unless the SNP suddenly collapses, so I wouldn't worry too much about Corbyn.

However, Mrs May should concern you as a prospective driver. Firstly, I'm sure the attack on the right of organised labour to exist will continue. Get a grasp on the politics behind the Southern dispute. Secondly, the McNulty report will continue to be implemented. It's availale to read online, and staffing is covered in a couple of pages. The future is to be self - financed training and new entrants employed on lesser conditions, salaries, etc than existing staff. Oh, and you'll have the added personal liability of being DOO as well.

Downsides of nationalisation - only one employer to go for, so your chances are less. Possibly harder to move location, as you'll be on a waiting list, rather than competing for a job vacancy with another operator. Ditto career progression, which would be seniority based, no doubt. Expect to spend years on suburban unit work, without the option of applying directly to an inter city operator.

 

[TractiveEffort]

A return to BR, no thanks, long hours, poor wages, it was like working in an institution that had to take on some of the countries unemployable.........

I just don't see how they could afford to do it, it's not just the ROSCOs and TOCs, there are many other contracted companies now, that wouldn't have been used in BR days, LH Plant, Bombardier, Unipart, Agility Trains/Hitachi - are Labour proposing to buy out all their contracts and take it back in house???

 

[ComUtoR]

I never worked under BR but many Drivers would never want to go back to then.

For me, I worked under the Gov when they took back my TOC. It was golden days tbh. The Gov are really really good at throwing money at problems. I got a decent payrise with little caveats.

 

[steamybrian]

I worked for BR and liked it and give full support for re-nationalisation. Trying to take back all the pieces may take many years but a start would be to take back the TOCs when the franchise contracts expire. The profits they make at present can be used to improve the system rather than sent abroad by the foreign companies that mainly own them.
I left Railtrack in 1996 when the whole rail industry was being broken up into small parts.
I worked in the offices and it caused a clerical nightmare.

 

[MylesHSG]

Is Corbyn's plan to nationalise the franchise's when they become available, but keep them as separate entities? Or to go back to one all encompassing British Rail?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Is Corbyn's plan to nationalise the franchise's when they become available, but keep them as separate entities? Or to go back to one all encompassing British Rail?

He doesn't have a plan. They've only said they'll look at it. And they ain't going to win the election either.

 

[6Gman]

He doesn't have a plan. They've only said they'll look at it. And they ain't going to win the election either.

I'm in favour of renationalisation. Because - on balance - I feel the benefits would outweigh the drawbacks (and there are drawbacks). And I could give you a detailed account of why, and how it would be structured.

Corbyn is in favour of renationalisation. Because he believes in a big state. He could not give you a detailed account, nor how it would be structured.

 

[MylesHSG]

My question was really because East Coast was a really successful 'franchise' whilst we owned it as they could cater to the specific needs of that line and do things differently. Where as lumping everything back into one British Rail brand might muddy the waters. For example you wouldn't run yhe South East Franchise the same as Scottish Franchise or West Coast intercity.

 

[godfreycomplex]

My question was really because East Coast was a really successful 'franchise' whilst we owned it as they could cater to the specific needs of that line and do things differently. Where as lumping everything back into one British Rail brand might muddy the waters. For example you wouldn't run yhe South East Franchise the same as Scottish Franchise or West Coast intercity.

It may well be run as one unified brand yes; but I'll wager it'll be still geographically divided at an organisational level.
A problem often encountered when re-nationalisation is referred to is that people think that the railway will immediately go back to how it was in 1975. It won't.

 

[coxxy]

Would mean goodbye to any more decan't pay rises... definitely didn't sign up for the job to be a public servant....

But as everyone else is saying, It isn't going to happen.. Would cost the government farrrr too much money to implement

 

[Raul_Duke]

I'm personally more concerned with this section from the Tory Manifesto:

"We will work with train companies and their employees to agree minimum service levels during periods of industrial dispute – and if we cannot find a voluntary agreement, we will legislate to make this mandatory."

Source: https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto

 

[jon0844]

My question was really because East Coast was a really successful 'franchise' whilst we owned it as they could cater to the specific needs of that line and do things differently.

I wish DOR had run something a little more complicated than the ICEC franchise, as I am not convinced it showed DOR (or the state) is capable of running everything, or that it even was run that well - with rumours of a lack of interest in revenue protection and cuts in maintenance.

I guess the nearest we have now is the GTR management contract, but that's still not a perfect comparison.

 

[Jonny]

I wish DOR had run something a little more complicated than the ICEC franchise, as I am not convinced it showed DOR (or the state) is capable of running everything, or that it even was run that well - with rumours of a lack of interest in revenue protection and cuts in maintenance.

Which would explain, according to a recent documentary, an apparent maximum of 26 electric loco+DVT sets in service at any one time. One expects it to only be resolved by introducing the IEP sets.

I guess the nearest we have now is the GTR management contract, but that's still not a perfect comparison.

If that's what a nationalised railway looks like, well it is the ultimate politician's compromise... of little use to anyone, and leaving everyone positively dissatisfied.

 

[TrenHotel]

I wish DOR had run something a little more complicated than the ICEC franchise, as I am not convinced it showed DOR (or the state) is capable of running everything, or that it even was run that well - with rumours of a lack of interest in revenue protection and cuts in maintenance.

I guess the nearest we have now is the GTR management contract, but that's still not a perfect comparison.

Was there a link between the DOR team that ran East Coast and the government-backed team that ran South Eastern Trains, which picked up the pieces after Connex?

 

[thedbdiboy]

I worked for BR and liked it and give full support for re-nationalisation. Trying to take back all the pieces may take many years but a start would be to take back the TOCs when the franchise contracts expire. The profits they make at present can be used to improve the system rather than sent abroad by the foreign companies that mainly own them.
I left Railtrack in 1996 when the whole rail industry was being broken up into small parts.
I worked in the offices and it caused a clerical nightmare.

I speak with experience of both pre- and post-privatisation. I admired BR's ability to manage a desperately underfunded industry but have to warn you that there are no 'profits' to repatriate after nationalisation - those foreign operators have made the lowest cost bid for a contract and they will not magically create money if the service is not contracted. All that will happen is that the treasury will once again have direct control of the purse strings and there will be less money for everything, including staff and wages.

 

[lordbusiness]

Quoting DOR East Coast as an example of a successful state run railway is wrong. Running 200-300 trains a day and a dozen stations is one thing, a whole network is another.

The cost involved would be huge- harmonisation of wages from TOCs, NWR etc would push the wage bill through the roof. The unions will push for the highest wages- no one will acept a pay cut. End result will be large scale redundancies and low pay increases if any.

The unions will never accept this- let's admit it, the people pulling JC's strings on nationisation are the unions. The honeymoon will soon end.

Nobody has any idea how much renationalisation would cost. Existing owning groups would either walk away leaving the Govt to pick up the costs of upgrades, new trains or renegotiate existing franchises. No company is going to invest billions in a franchise they will lose when the franchise ends. Likewise, if the govt goes for a share buyout, the govt will have to pick up the bill for the franchise commitments such as new trains, improvements etc or cancel them.

End result, the govt will have to cut costs elsewhere- easiest way- cut staff costs.

Make no mistake, despite what is said, very little profit from the renationalised railway will be reinvested- it will go to the NHS, welfare etc. End result, improvements cancelled, orders cancelled etc and redundancies in supporting industries.

Franchises are far from perfect as they are- the future is larger, longer franchises and bringing NWR under control of the TOC's- regionalisation not nationalisation.