GWR Class 800

[reddragon]

I've never once heard someone say "Too bad the train/bus/car broke down and I'm stuck here, but at least it looks good." :roll:

Most Italian Sports car or old British Sports car owners say that actually!

 

[D365]

Most Italian Sports car or old British Sports car owners say that actually!

I assume AnsaldoBreda said that too when they employed Pininfarina to design their IC4s...

 

[najaB]

For those who are keeping score, RWW knows better than:

• The train designers
• The DfT
• The timetable planners
• Network rail operational staff
• The TOCs

Did I leave anyone off?

 

[43096]

Indeed, even the famous cab redesign came about because the unions rejected the original, on grounds of the single seat and poor visibility. BR also took the opportunity to refine the aerodynamics and improve the headlight clusters.

Think you will find Sir Kenneth Grange did the redesign - genius and legend that he is.

 

[ExTankieAaron]

For those who are keeping score, RWW knows better than:

• The train designers
• The DfT
• The timetable planners
• Network rail operational staff
• The TOCs

Did I leave anyone off?

Hitachi staff...

 

[The Ham]

I thought the forum "experts" had already made it perfectly clear that these trains are utterly brilliant in every single way......

Their appear to be the groups, those that are opposed to IEP and therefore to any trains that are then produced from that.

Those that want to see the trains in service before making a judgement but are happy to justify why the trains are as they are when there is unreasonable arguments from the first group.

Those that are very favorable to the new trains.

Most of the discussion trends to be between those in the first two groups. Mostly because of the poor arguments from the first group; such as their fixation on loco hauled, the Ramps within the coaches, only having 5 coach trains replacing longer trains and not wanting to repeat the mistakes of the Voyagers.

In responding to those opposed it could come across that those that are waiting to see could fall into the last group in that they appear to defend any complaint.

However I would suggest that it is more a case of the complaints being more a case of people not wanting them and looking around for problems rather than any real major floor.

Locos good = locos waste platform space
Ramps bad = gradients will not
5 coaches bad = there's more coaches overall
5 coaches bad = capacity of those are still 60% of the original trains whilst when run in pairs (most of the time due to more coaches than existing) will see an increase in capacity
5 coaches bad = by being able to run units in pairs the risk of a fault causing a cancellation of a service is less and you need less spare coaches incase of faults
Voyagers bad = yes, new trains spec is "Voyagers bad, don't make me trains like them"
IEP expensive = only when you compare on a coach by coach basis, new trains have more seats per coach so not a fair comparison. On a per seat basis much closer

I think that covers most of the last 5 years worth of arguments on here

 

[dp21]

Something I've seen raised at least once before is door distances from the end of the coaches and the gap between coaches.

Please forgive me if raised already but I believe the DfT stipulated that the stepping distances from the new units should be the same as the Mk3s, essentially saying the doors have to be at 23m distance on each coach. This therefore gives excess space at the end of the coaches.

With regards the gap between the coaches, I believe this is due to gauging. If you look at the 170s for example, they have quite a sizeable gap despite being 23m vehicles but this is down to being required to traverse relatively tight curves and stay in gauge. I don't believe the pendos have such requirements and thus have a much smaller inter-vehicle gap.

I, for one, will retain judgement on these things until they start to arrive later this year.

(P.s. Open to being corrected on any of the above if wrong!)

 

[squizzler]

Fair comment and certainly - There are several gripes, but by far the biggest is the very lazy attention to aesthetics between the coaches - not only is everything over exposed, but the distances between the coaches are in no way disguised and it looks very ugly. But more than this, the huge one is the great gaping gap and under the coaches between each - look at the 91s and mark 4 sets - look at the Pendolino, look at the German ICE 4 equivalent, Italian classic line trains being brought in, none have such a clunky, thoughtless gap under the coaches where the inner 'clunk' and workings are laid bare with pipes, and wires as well as a tone of fresh air for all to see. There's no attempt at 'wow' factor or streamlining. This is not the norm even with our existing Intercity's - not even with the Voyagers.

<snip>

Then we come to the roof - what a dog's breakfast - where's the streamlining? Flat with clunky looking equipment stuck on at either end with further 'bits' between. No attempt (like the area between the coaches underneath) to cover up the 'innards' of the train.

When I first saw one in the flesh at Swansea I was also struck by the "modular" look of the whole shebang. Whilst I personally find the technical look to have a certain businesslike charm I was concerned about the effect on aerodynamic noise. 140mph is getting close to the speeds that Shinkansen used to run back in the day and it was problematic to lineside communities, so that is why modern Shinkansen, whilst admittedly faster due to technological progress, have fairings over all the wheelsets and even flanking the pantograph. Will additional fairings be part of the upgrade of the fleet to 140mph, should that happen?

I can see why the aesthetic might offend some. 100 years ago British passenger locomotives used to have an elegant look that contrasted with "foreign" locos such as French compounds and North American stuff festooned with pipes, compressors and bells. Now we seem to be in a bizarro world where the British and foreign rolling stock have swapped design language.

 

[BestWestern]

I think the point that comes to the fore here is that, whilst HST was a cutting edge limousine, IEP is essentially a Mondeo in mid-range trim! It's functional, little else. I don't think anybody would use the term 'luxurious', even First Class looks be to a significant downgrade from what's currently on offer on the HST fleet. It's a shame, but the train has to be viewed in context.

 

[D365]

... whilst HST was a cutting edge limousine...

Really? Were they?

 

[BestWestern]

Really? Were they?

Yes, essentially. They were 'the future', a massive step forwards from the existing offering, intended to revolutionise rail travel. Which they did, with enormous success. And yes, in terms of comfort, they were cutting edge, for the UK anyhow.

The point is that IEP isn't a modern equivalent of that revolution, it is simply new rolling stock. The revolution was the wires - and we know how that went. The Class 800 itself is a commuter train with pointy ends. It isn't anything amazing, and so far as I can see it was never intended to be. Thin seats, small windows, no buffet/shop, etc. It's intended to get the maximum number of punters from here to there, nothing more. It's simply functional, very different from the introduction of HST.

 

[CosherB]

Yes, essentially. They were 'the future', a massive step forwards from the existing offering, intended to revolutionise rail travel. Which they did, with enormous success. And yes, in terms of comfort, they were cutting edge, for the UK anyhow.

The point is that IEP isn't a modern equivalent of that revolution, it is simply new rolling stock. The revolution was the wires - and we know how that went. The Class 800 itself is a commuter train with pointy ends. It isn't anything amazing, and so far as I can see it was never intended to be. Thin seats, small windows, no buffet/shop, etc. It's intended to get the maximum number of punters from here to there, nothing more. It's simply functional, very different from the introduction of HST.

I think Hitachi may contest that assertion!

 

[BestWestern]

I think Hitachi may contest that assertion!

I think Hitachi would probably suggest that they built a train to the supplied specification! I really don't think anybody is touting it as anything more than an everyday long distance train, are they? As I said earlier, the jewel in the crown of the whole project is/was the electrification, and the (intended) ability to operate electric trains, moreso that than the actual trains themselves. I'm not aware of anything about them that is likely to exceed the requirement to just quietly get on with the job - is anybody else?!

 

[Bornin1980s]

Yes, essentially. They were 'the future', a massive step forwards from the existing offering, intended to revolutionise rail travel. Which they did, with enormous success. And yes, in terms of comfort, they were cutting edge, for the UK anyhow.

The point is that IEP isn't a modern equivalent of that revolution, it is simply new rolling stock. The revolution was the wires - and we know how that went. The Class 800 itself is a commuter train with pointy ends. It isn't anything amazing, and so far as I can see it was never intended to be. Thin seats, small windows, no buffet/shop, etc. It's intended to get the maximum number of punters from here to there, nothing more. It's simply functional, very different from the introduction of HST.

Exactly, I never believed that the Hitachis would be anything like as iconic as the HST. The HST was the last step change in British rail travel. Remember, many of its routes had been steam operated only a decade previously! It came at the back end of the 60s transport revolution which also gave us the jet airliner – which has since changed so little that some 60s models are still in production!

Mind you, the Hitachis are more than commuter stock. They will have on-board catering, with quite a large kitchen in the first-class vehicle. And, the standard class seats are the same as the first-class seats in a 700, though I do agree that even some first-class seats are a bit thin for purpose.

 

[BestWestern]

Mind you, the Hitachis are more than commuter stock. They will have on-board catering, with quite a large kitchen in the first-class vehicle. And, the standard class seats are the same as the first-class seats in a 700, though I do agree that even some first-class seats are a bit thin for purpose.

That's a fair point, they will of course have a fully specced kitchen. In terms of the overall passenger experience though, I'm anticipating something not overly dissimilar to a SWT Class 444, for example. Not unpleasant, but not 'special' either. Just a fairly standard modern train. We shall see what emerges, of course.

 

[fgwrich]

Exactly, I never believed that the Hitachis would be anything like as iconic as the HST. The HST was the last step change in British rail travel. Remember, many of its routes had been steam operated only a decade previously! It came at the back end of the 60s transport revolution which also gave us the jet airliner – which has since changed so little that some 60s models are still in production!

Mind you, the Hitachis are more than commuter stock. They will have on-board catering, with quite a large kitchen in the first-class vehicle. And, the standard class seats are the same as the first-class seats in a 700, though I do agree that even some first-class seats are a bit thin for purpose. .

That unfortunately is one of my biggest concerns, along with the luggage issue. Having used a few of those 700s now, I've come to realise how uncomfortable that first class seat actually is - I now fully prefer to stay in standard. Sadly it's down to the padding and the posture - remaining very firm and telling you how to sit in it any which way.

 

[Envoy]

I think that those dangling cables between the coaches look awful and I am not too keen on the doors not being flush with the body.

I really wonder if the livery of the GWR and Virgin Class 800 is that good? Looking at the Trans Pennine Express livery images for these trains, they seem to look sleeker. The GWR green looks almost black in certain light and it does not stand out in the countryside.

 

[superalbs]

Mind you, the Hitachis are more than commuter stock. They will have on-board catering, with quite a large kitchen in the first-class vehicle. And, the standard class seats are the same as the first-class seats in a 700, though I do agree that even some first-class seats are a bit thin for purpose.

http://freedmanseating.com/seats_and_accessories/rail_seating-1/sophia/

They're specified as a Commuter/Regional seat, so I have no idea how they ended up on this 'step-change' premium intercity train.

 

[D1009]

When I first saw one in the flesh at Swansea I was also struck by the "modular" look of the whole shebang. Whilst I personally find the technical look to have a certain businesslike charm I was concerned about the effect on aerodynamic noise. 140mph is getting close to the speeds that Shinkansen used to run back in the day and it was problematic to lineside communities, so that is why modern Shinkansen, whilst admittedly faster due to technological progress, have fairings over all the wheelsets and even flanking the pantograph. Will additional fairings be part of the upgrade of the fleet to 140mph, should that happen?

The class 800 nose is very similar to the class 395, which have been happily running at 140 mph along HS1 for quite a few years now.

 

[jimm]

The GWR green looks almost black in certain light and it does not stand out in the countryside.

One less railway-related thing for residents of Goring to worry about then...

 

[squizzler]

The class 800 nose is very similar to the class 395, which have been happily running at 140 mph along HS1 for quite a few years now.

When I speculate on aerodynamic noise I mean not so much the nose but rather the modules on the roof and undercarriage. I actually later considered that the "Javelin" sets have a similarly lumpy design - it did not spring immediately to mind because I don't live in the southeast and I admit I have not heard of aerodynamic noise being problematic for the 395's. But then again they only reach high speeds on the dedicated HSL, whereas the 800's might run one day at 140 on old-skool lines with development encroaching closer, through stations, etc.

 

[BananaRepublic]

.....I really wonder if the livery of the GWR and Virgin Class 800 is that good?

We haven't seen the Virgin livery yet, have we?.
The Virgin livery on the test train is the Azuma promotional livery.

 

[leomartin125]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, I just wanted confirmation. Is it true that the IEP can only go into one platform at Plymouth? I think it's 7 if I remember correctly... And that also it may not be able to make it round the Saltash curve?

 

[BestWestern]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, I just wanted confirmation. Is it true that the IEP can only go into one platform at Plymouth? I think it's 7 if I remember correctly... And that also it may not be able to make it round the Saltash curve?

Unlikely. Most of those stories are nonsense, there are plenty about!

 

[jimm]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, I just wanted confirmation. Is it true that the IEP can only go into one platform at Plymouth? I think it's 7 if I remember correctly... And that also it may not be able to make it round the Saltash curve?

£180 million (GW area) and £330m (East Coast routes) of the IEP project budget was allocated specifically for gauge clearance

https://www.europeanrailwayreview.com/advent-calendar/intercity-express-programme/

but GWR wouldn't have ordered the 802s without first checking with Network Rail that necessary adjustments could be made where they are needed all the way to Penzance.

As BestWestern observes, these rumours has been doing the rounds over and over for several years. In my neck of the woods, the current one - already recycled once or twice - is that they will not fit though Ledbury tunnel...

 

[D1009]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, I just wanted confirmation. Is it true that the IEP can only go into one platform at Plymouth? I think it's 7 if I remember correctly... And that also it may not be able to make it round the Saltash curve?

It may well be the case currently, simply because so far route proving is only being done where required by the test programme. Once the testing of the trains is complete, route proving will be done wherever necessary.

 

[leomartin125]

This has to be the first time a Class 800 has ever been on the South West Mainline! I wonder why this is running tonight...

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97571/2017/05/15/advanced

 

[jimm]

This has to be the first time a Class 800 has ever been on the South West Mainline! I wonder why this is running tonight...

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97571/2017/05/15/advanced

Presumably because the test programme requires it for route proving, as noted above, or, more likely at this stage. to see if the on-board electrical and electronic systems behave themselves when running alongside live 750v DC rails at speed over a sustained distance.

The routes from Reading to Waterloo are among those included in the IEP clearance programme - but they aren't the South West Main Line.

If anyone is interested, the DFT released details back in 2011 of routes that were then planned to be cleared for IEP operation for various reasons, with maps. Note that it does not taken account of later developments, such as Virgin East Coast planning to serve Huddersfield and Middlesbrough, while Ely-Kings Lynn has probably been dropped.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4888/dft-f0008119.pdf

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would they possibly get used into Waterloo on the Reading-Waterloo route if Paddington was closed and GWR trains got diverted into Waterloo?

 

[JN114]

Would they possibly get used into Waterloo on the Reading-Waterloo route if Paddington was closed and GWR trains got diverted into Waterloo?

Given the route clearance works include the Waterloo to Reading line (per post above yours) I'd guess that they would get used if GWR diverted into Waterloo after their introduction. Would be pretty pointless route clearing otherwise...