Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[railfan100]

This chestnut again It was never meant to introduce competition at the point of use

There were so many political statements being made in the run up to the system being operated with a 'private' methodology by the government of the day that there would be competition. A private organisation in the real world outside of a stitched up rail system like in the UK would operate in an open and free market. Privatisation in my view has failed the daily user, the commuter that quite often will be paying a significant portion of the NET salary in travel costs. In the North these high travel costs are to travel in life expired, worn out and badly maintained rolling stock, how good things are

 

[railfan100]

Refurbishing stock is currently subject to all kind of penny pinching moves by the DfT if you let them. It was ever thus with Government and BR had to fight like mad to get money to refurbish old DMUs and then get the Pacers and Sprinters built. Even then we had to scrap far more old vehicles than we received new. The treasury made sure we did that - they always wanted their efficiency "savings" off BR.

Looking back BR did a good job under such conditions, designing and building stock such as the 'Sprinters' which must have been far cheaper than just buying in 'off the shelf' rolling stock.

 

[CosherB]

Looking back BR did a good job under such conditions, designing and building stock such as the 'Sprinters' which must have been far cheaper than just buying in 'off the shelf' rolling stock.

I'm sure that, in BR days, 'off-the-shelf' rolling stock didn't exist. :roll:

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure that, in BR days, 'off-the-shelf' rolling stock didn't exist. :roll:

Very rare pre-privatisation but not unheard of. Weren't the original Pullman carriages 'off-the-shelf' ?

I want to know what improvements are being made to 158 toilets. These were by far the worst of all the 14x and 15x fleets with hand dryers that might as well be non-existant and taps which cut off as soon as you take your hand off the button, making it impossible to wash your hands properly.

The one I was on today, it was amazing how much water the flush managed to use without actually having the power to flush any solids away. It was more like a turd Jacuzzi than a water closet.

 

[CosherB]

Very rare pre-privatisation but not unheard of. Weren't the original Pullman carriages 'off-the-shelf' ?

I want to know what improvements are being made to 158 toilets. These were by far the worst of all the 14x and 15x fleets with hand dryers that might as well be non-existant and taps which cut off as soon as you take your hand off the button, making it impossible to wash your hands properly.

The one I was on today, it was amazing how much water the flush managed to use without actually having the power to flush any solids away. It was more like a turd Jacuzzi than a water closet.

Too much information!!!!

 

[yorksrob]

Very rare pre-privatisation but not unheard of. Weren't the original Pullman carriages 'off-the-shelf' ?

I want to know what improvements are being made to 158 toilets. These were by far the worst of all the 14x and 15x fleets with hand dryers that might as well be non-existant and taps which cut off as soon as you take your hand off the button, making it impossible to wash your hands properly.

The one I was on today, it was amazing how much water the flush managed to use without actually having the power to flush any solids away. It was more like a turd Jacuzzi than a water closet.

Too much information!!!!

I feel one has to be specific in ones description to get to the nub of the problem !

 

[Starmill]

Vacuum toilets will solve Yorksrob's err problem with his solids. They're already fitted to the refurbished 158s. No improvements to the hand dryers sadly. The only onboard hand dryer that I've ever used that consistently works properly is that of a 390.

 

[yorksrob]

Vacuum toilets will solve Yorksrob's err problem with his solids. They're already fitted to the refurbished 158s. No improvements to the hand dryers sadly. The only onboard hand dryer that I've ever used that consistently works properly is that of a 390.

D'oh, back to praying for paper towels then !

 

[Blindtraveler]

The Scotrail units going through refurb at the moment are coming out with wonderful CET toilets with poweful flushes. How about Northerns?

 

[railfan100]

I'm sure that, in BR days, 'off-the-shelf' rolling stock didn't exist. :roll:

Maybe your memory is short but before the country was as deskilled as it is today so much of the trains were designed and made by BR or the various connected divisions, hard to believe we got to where we are today from that :roll:

Some very talented and skilled engineers worked at BR. I am of the opinion that BREL built stock was far, far cheaper than off the self stock. The railway of today is not as frugal as it used to be.

 

[43096]

The only onboard hand dryer that I've ever used that consistently works properly is that of a 390.

The ones in the 442s seem(ed) to work whenever I used them, with a combination of air flow and heat. This is not just a UK problem, it seems to be on trains globally (didn't find one working properly on the XPTs for instance).

 

[Starmill]

D'oh, back to praying for paper towels then !

Paper towels are provided in the large toilet. Or at least, some are put there sometimes. I don't think enough for a whole day fit, and they don't seem to be replenished.

 

[Starmill]

The Scotrail units going through refurb at the moment are coming out with wonderful CET toilets with poweful flushes. How about Northerns?

As I say the refurbished 158s have new vacuum flush lavatories. The same as the ones going into the 159s on their refurbishment I think. Both previously had weak watery flushes and large tanks to hold the waste. which was not a great solution.

 

[yorksrob]

As I say the refurbished 158s have new vacuum flush lavatories. The same as the ones going into the 159s on their refurbishment I think. Both previously had weak watery flushes and large tanks to hold the waste. which was not a great solution.

To be honest, if the flush had worked, the large watery tank would have been fine, as on the Mk 4's.

 

[Starmill]

To be honest, if the flush had worked, the large watery tank would have been fine, as on the Mk 4's.

The tanks on Mk4s are very distinctly not fine, as they get full quickly because of the amount of water the toilet uses. Unfortunately that also meant that they sprayed some of their effluent around when they went around corners at speed. I think what you mean by 'if the flush had worked' is 'if the flush had used twice as much water' like your home lavatory presumably does.

 

[yorksrob]

The tanks on Mk4s are very distinctly not fine, as they get full quickly because of the amount of water the toilet uses. Unfortunately that also meant that they sprayed some of their effluent around when they went around corners at speed. I think what you mean by 'if the flush had worked' is 'if the flush had used twice as much water' like your home lavatory presumably does.

Hmm, not really. The impression I got was that the problem with mk4's arose from their tanks not being emptied enough, which is a management issue, rather than a technical problem. Much like vacuum toilets going out of service mid journey because no one has emptied/filled the various tanks.

 

[Starmill]

What you want is tanks that don't need emptying as often. The answer? Use less water. That's why they're vacuum toilets in the first place.

 

[DJH1971]

156471 is in the new livery.

Saw it just at St Helens Junction on the service to Warrington Bank Quay.

 

[yorksrob]

What you want is tanks that don't need emptying as often. The answer? Use less water. That's why they're vacuum toilets in the first place.

I still say you can't beat a nice, strong, well directed flush.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

D'oh, back to praying for paper towels then !

The GWR 158's have a long towel roll instead, I'm suprised that it hasn't caught on with Northern.

 

[Starmill]

I still say you can't beat a nice, strong, well directed flush.

Which is not something I have ever seen from a toilet on a train. Definitely not one with a tank.

 

[47802]

Been on quite a few Northern Trains today the best one being a TPE 185Oh and it looks like even the 37's managed to run without breaking down today

I was on 156 443 and that's a real half arsed job. It has the new Livery and walls appear to have been repainted but the Seats and Carpet don't appear to have been touched, a particularly nice touch was a blob of white paint on the carpet and what appear to be some white paint smears on some of the seat backs.

 

[yorksrob]

The GWR 158's have a long towel roll instead, I'm suprised that it hasn't caught on with Northern.

Yes, the GWR towel rolls are good. I would love to see them rolled out across the network.

 

[yorksrob]

Which is not something I have ever seen from a toilet on a train. Definitely not one with a tank.

I've experienced many good flushes on trains. Most splashing the tracks it has to be said.

 

[Blindtraveler]

156443 sounds poor in terms of splashed paint etc, I wonder what if any plans they have for the soft furnishings etc? Mind you wernt the 1566s given a refresh under old northern a couple years ago?

I think the roller towels must cost a lot of money and will be an easy victim if a toc wants to cut costs. Do GWRs 158s contain the as built hand dryer?

 

[47802]

156443 sounds poor in terms of splashed paint etc, I wonder what if any plans they have for the soft furnishings etc? Mind you wernt the 1566s given a refresh under old northern a couple years ago?

I think the roller towels must cost a lot of money and will be an easy victim if a toc wants to cut costs. Do GWRs 158s contain the as built hand dryer?

Possibly the seat covers while still being the old Northern colours looked reasonably new, but overall while better than a an unreburbished example it wasn't of a high standard that's for sure. I will say that I do actually like the new exterior colour scheme, I thought the old colour scheme was overly fussy and bit dreary.

Also I went on the Bentham line yesterday who ever thinks railbuses are better than 150's needs to try them on this line where there are still large sections of jointed track. Outward was on 150/2 which while not being the best train in the world I found it reasonably comfortable compared to the big dipper ride on the return journey with the 144. The sooner they go the better in my view.

 

[yorksrob]

Possibly the seat covers while still being the old Northern colours looked reasonably new, but overall while better than a an unreburbished example it wasn't of a high standard that's for sure. I will say that I do actually like the new exterior colour scheme, I thought the old colour scheme was overly fussy and bit dreary.

Also I went on the Bentham line yesterday who ever thinks railbuses are better than 150's needs to try them on this line where there are still large sections of jointed track. Outward was on 150/2 which while not being the best train in the world I found it reasonably comfortable compared to the big dipper ride on the return journey with the 144. The sooner they go the better in my view.

I often catch 144's on the route and don't find them too bad (albeit with an admittedly lively ride).

The absolute nadir on the route was a Merseyrail 142 full of festival goers and with a blocked toilet. On the way back I bailed at Long Preston and waited for the last train from Ribblehead.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Oy leave my darling pacers alone. Which service did you get yesturday? I know the 10:14 Leeds Hayshom and return on a Saturday is booked one

 

[47802]

Oy leave my darling pacers alone. Which service did you get yesturday? I know the 10:14 Leeds Hayshom and return on a Saturday is booked one

The 150 was 08-19 from Leeds the other was the 19-25 out of Lancaster which was a 3 car 144 plus a 153 Not in use.

Some people say 150/2 are uncomfortable but I don't really find that the only problem for me is the seats where there is a box which I presume are the heater boxes under the seat in front of you. otherwise they are OK. I'm guessing that 150's will probably be the mainstay of the Bentham route once the Railbuses go.

The refurbished 156 was on the Cumbrian Coast, Coming back down the coast on a 37 yes they are more comfortable than a 156 but you can see they are cumbersome to operate, Slower Timetable, extra staff member on board to help out, one young women went flying down the train in a panic looking for a staff member as she had no idea how to open the doors.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would say your most likely correct, would be nice to see an inter regional sub fleat of 150s given an ATW style interior