Chris Grayling's comments on Japanese trains

[AventraFlex]

Hi everyone

I'm very new to these forums, having only joined very recently, so I apologise if this topic's already been discussed. But I'm curious to know everyone's opinions on Chris Grayling telling the Japanese transport minister that the Aventra / Electrostar trains are better than their commuter trains.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-tells-japan-our-trains-are-better-than-yours

During a visit to Japan in September, ostensibly to encourage investment in Britain’s roads, railways and ports, Grayling told transport minister Keiichi Ishii that the Derby trains were superior to Tokyo’s.

Last week, Grayling also told MPs: “I have an ambition to see that train [Aventra] deployed in other countries as well. I have already told the Japanese transport minister that, although he has good trains on the suburban network in Tokyo, our Bombardier trains from Derby are better and that he should buy some for his network.”

I've never travelled on the Japanese suburban units, and while I'm not particularly fond of longitudinal seating on some of their trains, I still think they're very good, and possibly superior to ours in some way - maybe not in terms of speed though.

What does everyone else think?

 

[yorksrob]

Sounds like a decent pitch for British exports. I've never been on a Japanese suburban train, but I have to say, the Electrostars on our South Eastern division seem fairly comfortable, so if Grayling has been on Japanese shorter distance trains and found them lacking, why not make the observation.

 

[CosherB]

Hi everyone

I'm very new to these forums, having only joined very recently, so I apologise if this topic's already been discussed. But I'm curious to know everyone's opinions on Chris Grayling telling the Japanese transport minister that the Aventra / Electrostar trains are better than their commuter trains.

I've never travelled on the Japanese suburban units, and while I'm not particularly fond of longitudinal seating on some of their trains, I still think they're very good, and possibly superior to ours in some way - maybe not in terms of speed though.

What does everyone else think?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/chris-grayling-tells-japan-our-trains-are-better-than-yours

Slightly old news now ..... and slightly risky as Hitachi are investing heavily in the UK, and we are buying (some) of their trains from Japan and Italy. Plus plenty of Spanish trains on the way, and no doubt more German one's in due course. I'd rather we sold 'our' trains on their strengths alone, rather than trying to denigrate the opposition. Mind you, train exports isn't a major UK industry anyway ....

 

[yorksrob]

Hitachi are investing in the UK because we are buying. They're not going to walk out on that in a fit of pique because the Minister is bigging up a UK manufacturers product.

Is Japanese rolling stock manufacture open to foreign bidders anyway ?

 

[AventraFlex]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/chris-grayling-tells-japan-our-trains-are-better-than-yours

Slightly old news now ..... and slightly risky as Hitachi are investing heavily in the UK, and we are buying (some) of their trains from Japan and Italy. Plus plenty of Spanish trains on the way, and no doubt more German one's in due course. I'd rather we sold 'our' trains on their strengths alone, rather than trying to denigrate the opposition. Mind you, train exports isn't a major UK industry anyway ....

I see... personally I can't imagine Aventras running on Japanese rails anyway. Though it is ambitious on Grayling's part I suppose...

Do you think it'll be possible that we may someday see trains manufactured by J-TREC on our railways? I believe that J-TREC was one of the tenders for the new Merseyrail trains.

Though it's probably wishful thinking for now

 

[Domh245]

There is of course no guarantee that any Bombardier product for Japan would be fulfilled by a Derby produced Aventra. Bombardier Transportation are of course a German firm, so it is likely that any train they built for japan would be built in one of their continental plants, or more likely one of their Asian plants (Changchun China, or Savli India). This was of course, a load of tripe from Mr Grayling in a push for post Brexit trade, blissfully unaware of the realities, similarly (but perhaps less wrong) to David Cameron who thought that Derby would build more vehicles for the Voyager fleet, instead of Bruges

 

[CosherB]

There is of course no guarantee that any Bombardier product for Japan would be fulfilled by a Derby produced Aventra. Bombardier Transportation are of course a German firm, so it is likely that any train they built for japan would be built in one of their continental plants, or more likely one of their Asian plants (Changchun China, or Savli India). This was of course, a load of tripe from Mr Grayling in a push for post Brexit trade, blissfully unaware of the realities, similarly (but perhaps less wrong) to David Cameron who thought that Derby would build more vehicles for the Voyager fleet, instead of Bruges

No they aren't, they're Canadian. :roll:

 

[MCR247]

No they aren't, they're Canadian. :roll:

Bombardier Transportation is headquartered in Berlin, they let you know as soon as you arrive at Hauptbahnhof Bombardier is of course Canadian

 

[Mordac]

No they aren't, they're Canadian. :roll:

And of course the all the Aventra production line material is at Derby, and the continental plants aren't set up for producing them. So in the unlikely event that a Japanese railway would order some Aventras, they'd very likely be produced at Derby.

It's worth noting that outwith the High Speed lines, Japanese loading gauge is very similar to the British one, so there's a possible point in its favour.

Bombardier Transportation is headquartered in Berlin, they let you know as soon as you arrive at Hauptbahnhof Bombardier is of course Canadian

And Arriva is headquartered in Sunderland, but that doesn't stop anyone referring to them as German.

 

[Domh245]

No they aren't, they're Canadian. :roll:

That's Bombardier Inc.. Bombardier Transportation are a division of the parent company with a HQ in Berlin. The Aviation division is based in Canada.

 

[CosherB]

That's Bombardier Inc.. Bombardier Transportation are a division of the parent company with a HQ in Berlin. The Aviation division is based in Canada.

Bombardier Inc is the parent company, and is Canadian. Yes, the rail division has an HQ in Berlin, and the aerospace division has an HQ in Montreal, but all of this is irrelevant as the company is Canadian - it's listed on the Montreal Stock Exchange and enjoys 'investment' from the Canadian Government.

 

[yorksrob]

There is of course no guarantee that any Bombardier product for Japan would be fulfilled by a Derby produced Aventra. Bombardier Transportation are of course a German firm, so it is likely that any train they built for japan would be built in one of their continental plants, or more likely one of their Asian plants (Changchun China, or Savli India). This was of course, a load of tripe from Mr Grayling in a push for post Brexit trade, blissfully unaware of the realities, similarly (but perhaps less wrong) to David Cameron who thought that Derby would build more vehicles for the Voyager fleet, instead of Bruges

Obviously that's an issue with foreign owned companies, however theoretically there's no reason why trains can't be built in Derby for assembly in Japan any more than the other way round.

Unless we're supposed to sit back and supinely accept that only our rolling stock market must be open to foreign competition and nobody else's.

 

[WideRanger]

One thing to bear in mind is the (intentional) high degree of common design in Japanese commuter stock. A 40 year old Japanese commuter train feels very similar to a brand new one. This is because there is significant emphasis on doors being in exactly the same position into the station, and interoperability on lines of multiple companies (with drivers of different companies taking over for each company's line). So it is hard to see that there is much scope for differentiation (and therefore proper competition) unless the approach fundamentally changes.

 

[goblinuser]

I don't think he was right to say this. Japan has a well established rolling stock manufacturing industry. What does Britain have?

 

[AM9]

Obviously that's an issue with foreign owned companies, however theoretically there's no reason why trains can't be built in Derby for assembly in Japan any more than the other way round.

Unless we're supposed to sit back and supinely accept that only our rolling stock market must be open to foreign competition and nobody else's.

Surely we'd have to show a potential customer that we have both the experience in supplying the right product into markets and environments representative of the customers and at the right cost of ownership.
How long is it since a British made train was designed and/or manufactured by an establishment located in the UK, let alone by a British led company here, then exported to an overseas customer?
The days of the British Empire are long gone and the Commonwealth is an entirely different thing compared with what it was in the '70s.
Nope, Grayling's bigging up 'UK rail industry', (whatever he thinks that means), is more to appeal to the electorate here, because the Japanese will just see it as advertising our workforce as being available to do the nut and bolt final assembly jobs.

 

[yorksrob]

Surely we'd have to show a potential customer that we have both the experience in supplying the right product into markets and environments representative of the customers and at the right cost of ownership.
How long is it since a British made train was designed and/or manufactured by an establishment located in the UK, let alone by a British led company here, then exported to an overseas customer?
The days of the British Empire are long gone and the Commonwealth is an entirely different thing compared with what it was in the '70s.
Nope, Grayling's bigging up 'UK rail industry', (whatever he thinks that means), is more to appeal to the electorate here, because the Japanese will just see it as advertising our workforce as being available to do the nut and bolt final assembly jobs.

To answer your question, the Irish Republic bought Mk 3 vehicles in what was most certainly the post Empire age.

We're the only country gullible enough to believe in laissez-faire economics. The others pay lip service whilst ensuring that their own companies get a head start. This confidence trick played on the British public, through which we've allowed our own industry to be dismantled/sold off, is the only reason why we don't have the experience in supplying the right product to overseas markets.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There is of course no guarantee that any Bombardier product for Japan would be fulfilled by a Derby produced Aventra. Bombardier Transportation are of course a German firm, so it is likely that any train they built for japan would be built in one of their continental plants, or more likely one of their Asian plants (Changchun China, or Savli India). This was of course, a load of tripe from Mr Grayling in a push for post Brexit trade, blissfully unaware of the realities, similarly (but perhaps less wrong) to David Cameron who thought that Derby would build more vehicles for the Voyager fleet, instead of Bruges

Chris Grayling is probably well aware that we have a vast trade deficit with Japan, increased by buying Hitachi trains.
Don't be fooled into thinking Class 800 is "British" - all its expensive bits are made in Japan.
They do not readily buy foreign, and the train market is effectively closed.
There are hardly any Airbus planes or Rolls Royce engines in Japan, as they always buy American.
These are the types of economy we will have to deal with after Brexit.

 

[fgwrich]

Chris Grayling is probably well aware that we have a vast trade deficit with Japan, increased by buying Hitachi trains.
Don't be fooled into thinking Class 800 is "British" - all its expensive bits are made in Japan.
They do not readily buy foreign, and the train market is effectively closed.
There are hardly any Airbus planes or Rolls Royce engines in Japan, as they always buy American.
These are the types of economy we will have to deal with after Brexit.

Indeed so.

It's lucky that Bombardier is now trying to push the Aventra, because I hardly think the Japanese would be impressed with a near 20 year old Electrostar. Or Derby's build quality compared to their own.

 

[AM9]

To answer your question, the Irish Republic bought Mk 3 vehicles in what was most certainly the post Empire age.

Yes, IE had MKIIIs from the UK which like the BR deployed ones are a 1970s design. But that was just supplying a short overrun of our production quantities because the loading gauge there is similar to ours. They have all been scrapped now and replaced by CAF suppled vehicles. We have also suppled a grand total of 26 cars of class 2700 DMUs and 10 cars of class 8200 EMUs. Hardly anything worth writing home about when Derby is supposed to be the centre of railway design. One of the smallest class of trains (in car numbers) supplied from a UK manufacturer is the class 323 EMUs from Hunslet. That totalled 129 cars, almost five times as many as the total EI purchase since the seventies.

We're the only country gullible enough to believe in laissez-faire economics. The others pay lip service whilst ensuring that their own companies get a head start. This confidence trick played on the British public, through which we've allowed our own industry to be dismantled/sold off, is the only reason why we don't have the experience in supplying the right product to overseas markets.

Actually, we scrapped most of the rail manufacturing industry all by ourselves. The real loss of most industry that actually made anything was at Thatcher's declaration that we would become a service providing country. Fortunately not everybody believed that and we still have some manufacturing left but with trains that only exists as assembly lines for overseas owned companies, (or limited design work for the German/Canadian masters of Bombardier).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On the plus side, Derby provided 24 4-car Electrostar EMUs for the Johannesburg Gautrain system in 2008, though most of the trains were assembled locally.
The front end of these trains resembles the Class 345 Aventra (and similarly with no yellow ends). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautrain
However, the recent huge order to re-equip all the Metrorail EMU networks (Cape Town, Johannesburg and Durban) involving 600 EMUs went to Alstom.
This was of the X'Trapolis design, again mostly assembled locally. http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-emus-enter-revenue-service-1.html?sword_list[]=durban&no_cache=1

Derby also supplied trams to Strasbourg in ABB days, though they weren't the main contractor.
But these are very much exceptions.

 

[squizzler]

Almost a third of all Japanese travel is by train. Less than one tenth of British travel is by train. They are a more populous country anyway which means that their rail usage is four times ours and trains are much more embedded in their culture. I hope best practice does spread in both directions, but with the size of the indigenous market it is unlikely our exports to them will take the form of physical hardware.

Freight rail is a different story. Perhaps they can learn from our open access operators?

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, IE had MKIIIs from the UK which like the BR deployed ones are a 1970s design. But that was just supplying a short overrun of our production quantities because the loading gauge there is similar to ours. They have all been scrapped now and replaced by CAF suppled vehicles. We have also suppled a grand total of 26 cars of class 2700 DMUs and 10 cars of class 8200 EMUs. Hardly anything worth writing home about when Derby is supposed to be the centre of railway design. One of the smallest class of trains (in car numbers) supplied from a UK manufacturer is the class 323 EMUs from Hunslet. That totalled 129 cars, almost five times as many as the total EI purchase since the seventies.



Actually, we scrapped most of the rail manufacturing industry all by ourselves. The real loss of most industry that actually made anything was at Thatcher's declaration that we would become a service providing country. Fortunately not everybody believed that and we still have some manufacturing left but with trains that only exists as assembly lines for overseas owned companies, (or limited design work for the German/Canadian masters of Bombardier).

There's no 'actually' in it. You're affirming that our slavish adherance to laissez-faire economics is what got us into this situation.

The question is, will we do anything about this situation.

 

[AM9]

There's no 'actually' in it. You're affirming that our slavish adherance to laissez-faire economics is what got us into this situation.

The question is, will we do anything about this situation.

Much of our manufacturing industry was written off as part of Thatcher's strategy for defeating the unions. We are still capable of competing in some global manufacturing markets (certain types of Defence equipment, Avionics, specialist software to name a few) where there isn't a race to the bottom.
Commercial rolling stock is never going to be an earner for the UK, - just like automobiles, we are destined to be limited to bolting other's designs together because of our convenient EU membership, - oh wait, that won't help for much longer, which brings us right back to the embarassment of Grayling making ridiculous claims about the superiority of 'British' trains during a visit to what is probably the world's leading train making nation. The only way that the UK will even get the bolt together work is as a buyer, making it a condition of the order.

 

[yorksrob]

Much of our manufacturing industry was written off as part of Thatcher's strategy for defeating the unions. We are still capable of competing in some global manufacturing markets (certain types of Defence equipment, Avionics, specialist software to name a few) where there isn't a race to the bottom.
Commercial rolling stock is never going to be an earner for the UK, - just like automobiles, we are destined to be limited to bolting other's designs together because of our convenient EU membership, - oh wait, that won't help for much longer, which brings us right back to the embarassment of Grayling making ridiculous claims about the superiority of 'British' trains during a visit to what is probably the world's leading train making nation. The only way that the UK will even get the bolt together work is as a buyer, making it a condition of the order.

Well, if there's no hope for "free trade" we should build up the non-tariff barriers and protect our own manufacturing.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

We're the only country gullible enough to believe in laissez-faire economics. The others pay lip service whilst ensuring that their own companies get a head start. This confidence trick played on the British public, through which we've allowed our own industry to be dismantled/sold off, is the only reason why we don't have the experience in supplying the right product to overseas markets.

There's no 'actually' in it. You're affirming that our slavish adherance to laissez-faire economics is what got us into this situation.

The question is, will we do anything about this situation.

With all due respect laissez-faire economics is not some evil conspiracy dreamed up by the Conservative Party during the Thatcher years. In fact laissez-faire was the preferred method of governance in this country going back to the very beginning of the industrial revolution. This method, as well as the empire providing ready markets, is what allowed the UK to become the pre-eminent world manufacturer until the US gradually got its act together after its civil war.

And unless you genuinely believe that globalisation can really be halted there can be no doubt that within a decade or two China will be massively dominant in world manufacture. There seems to me to be little point in worrying about how we got to where we are now. Far better to concentrate on things we can still do well compared to other places, as mentioned upthread.

Well, if there's no hope for "free trade" we should build up the non-tariff barriers and protect our own manufacturing.

Isolationism doesn't work: ask North Korea!

 

[Olaf]

It was a pitch for Derby as a design centre - i.e. to license designs to Japanese manufactures.

 

[yorksrob]

With all due respect laissez-faire economics is not some evil conspiracy dreamed up by the Conservative Party during the Thatcher years. In fact laissez-faire was the preferred method of governance in this country going back to the very beginning of the industrial revolution. This method, as well as the empire providing ready markets, is what allowed the UK to become the pre-eminent world manufacturer until the US gradually got its act together after its civil war.

And unless you genuinely believe that globalisation can really be halted there can be no doubt that within a decade or two China will be massively dominant in world manufacture. There seems to me to be little point in worrying about how we got to where we are now. Far better to concentrate on things we can still do well compared to other places, as mentioned upthread.



Isolationism doesn't work: ask North Korea!

Yes, we have a long history of laissez-faire economics in this country. It brought us slums and the potatoe famine.

All the major improvements to civic society, such as sanitation, education and and decent housing have been brought about by local Government or state intervention.

Saying "ooh we don't build trains anymore" and wistfully staring into the horizon doesn't really cut it I'm afraid, particularly when similar countries such as Spain and Germany manage to. You can bet your bottom dollar that they won't be blithely letting China take over all their train manufacturing. We are where we are because of bad policy decisions and limp wristed politicians waiving their arms about going "ooh the market, the market....." instead of actually Governing like we pay them to do.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It was a pitch for Derby as a design centre - i.e. to license designs to Japanese manufactures.

That might have worked 50 years ago, but I'm afraid it works the other way round now.
The other (serious) problem is that the UK railway is so different from anyone else's that nobody is interested in our local solutions.

 

[Mikey C]

Washwood Heath closed in 2005....under Labour

Surely the plants have to take some of the blame, if the Junipers (and Coradias) hadn't been such a disaster, then SWT would presumably have a fleet of them instead of the Desiros.

 

[43096]

Bombardier Transportation is headquartered in Berlin, they let you know as soon as you arrive at Hauptbahnhof

Indeed they do. I have a photo somewhere of a Siemens Taurus under the sign!