Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[Parallel]

From what I've read the Welsh Govt still hasn't decided whether to keep ATW's 150/2s post 2020 yet.

Thanks - That explains why they haven't been fitted with PIS or wheelchair accessible toilets etc. But it's only two and a half years away and they need to make their mind up! The situation is bonkers!

 

[PHILIPE]

Thanks - That explains why they haven't been fitted with PIS or wheelchair accessible toilets etc. But it's only two and a half years away and they need to make their mind up! The situation is bonkers!

It was mentioned earlier in the thread that the Welsh Government were given the tip back in 2013 re PRM Mods but they've done xxxx all about it

 

[craigybagel]

So, with a half hourly Maesteg to Ebbw Vale electric service, having a path for a Swansea to Cardiff stopper could be difficult. How about it if this stopper was sent down the Vale Coast line via Llantwit Major and Rhoose to Cardiff? That would create a direct train service between Swansea and Cardiff Airport - almost - though a link to the terminal may be on the cards. The sizeable town of Barry would have direct trains to Swansea. People to/from Pyle & Baglan heading to/from Cardiff could change at Bridgend.

So, we half hourly stoppers on the mainline calling at Pontyclun & Llanharan making full use of the electrification project and we also have stoppers on the Swanline that use the Vale Coast Line instead of congesting the Bridgend to Cardiff section of the mainline.

You'd make the journey time so long nobody would use it if you sent them via Barry, they'd all have to change at Bridgend for Cardiff wouldn't go down well. Cardiff Airport is a ghost town these days and there's really not much point throwing more money at it on transport links that went get used.

 

[anthony263]

One report the welsh government has done of the Valley Lines electrification states that an hourly Maesteg - Ebbw Vale service would take 3 diagram aka 3 units which is good as the current ebbw Vale service today uses 3 diagrams.

So a half hurly service should require 6 units in total. As for the Cardiff - Cheltenham route don't forget there are proposals for an additional hourly Cardiff - Chepstow and Cardiff - Abergavenny services so these are likely to be worked by dmu's or bi modes.

As for Swanline I disagree with sending it via the vale of Glamorgan route as that would make the service just too slow for users. A regular clockface hourly service using emus which should reduce the current journey time of 65 minutes down to 60 minutes would make the service more popular especially from the swanline stations which have a very poor off peak service.

Emu's would also allow the services to be better pathed

I would say in the future increase the service to half hourly as that was one of the idea's when Swanline was first proposed

 

[gareth950]

Thanks - That explains why they haven't been fitted with PIS or wheelchair accessible toilets etc. But it's only two and a half years away and they need to make their mind up! The situation is bonkers!

Up until a few weeks ago the official line coming out of the Welsh Govt was still that PRM compliance was an issue for the new franchise to deal with and that enough cascaded, compliant DMUs could be found to enable the new ODP to continue services post 2020, despite persistent warnings from various rail professionals that then it will be far too late. However, now the penny has dropped and Ken Skates recently wrote to the DfT urging them to work with Cardiff Bay to ensure that "Wales doesn't get left behind" come 1/1/2020. Unsurpringly, I've yet to see a published response from the DfT.

So because TfW has been distracted with the competitive dialogue process for the new franchise and Metro, and the DfT and TfW couldn't work together to sort out the basics, whoever is at fault, it now looks like 1970s ex-LU trains will replace much more suited 1980s Sprinters.
150/2s do need to go, but if Wales gets a big fleet of D-trains, my biggest worry is that they'll be used as an excuse to delay electrification even longer and could end up staying around for up to 15 years, long outstaying their welcome and becoming Pacers Mark II - a short term stop-gap becoming a long term problem.

 

[anthony263]

I think the D Trains will replace the pacers until electrification of the core valley lines network is completed with Porterbrook suggestion the use of class 319 flex units on some routes to free up class 150/2's to be sent away for dda modifcations.

Personally I don't have issues with atw's class 150 fleet as they are very hard workhorses.

As for Valley Lines electrification I have heard something like the Tyne and wear metro suggested now instead of tram trains

 

[gareth950]

I think the D Trains will replace the pacers until electrification of the core valley lines network is completed with Porterbrook suggestion the use of class 319 flex units on some routes to free up class 150/2's to be sent away for dda modifcations.

Personally I don't have issues with atw's class 150 fleet as they are very hard workhorses.

As for Valley Lines electrification I have heard something like the Tyne and wear metro suggested now instead of tram trains

I agree re: the ATW 150/2s. The newly refreshed ATW 150/2s are very pleasant and fine for short - medium journeys.

As for something similar to the Tyne and Wear metro, how is that different to anything that's already been proposed for the Core valleys? It's still a light rail tram system that would involve breaking up the current Valleys & Vale of Glamorgan network. And there's the freight that is now staying on the valley lines to think about as well.

 

[PHILIPE]

One report the welsh government has done of the Valley Lines electrification states that an hourly Maesteg - Ebbw Vale service would take 3 diagram aka 3 units which is good as the current ebbw Vale service today uses 3 diagrams.

So a half hurly service should require 6 units in total. As for the Cardiff - Cheltenham route don't forget there are proposals for an additional hourly Cardiff - Chepstow and Cardiff - Abergavenny services so these are likely to be worked by dmu's or bi modes.

As for Swanline I disagree with sending it via the vale of Glamorgan route as that would make the service just too slow for users. A regular clockface hourly service using emus which should reduce the current journey time of 65 minutes down to 60 minutes would make the service more popular especially from the swanline stations which have a very poor off peak service.

Emu's would also allow the services to be better pathed

I would say in the future increase the service to half hourly as that was one of the idea's when Swanline was first proposed

Ebbw Vale uses what equates to 2.XX Diagrams as the units interchange with Maesteg/Cheltenhams to take up the slack of layovers of just under an hour at Cardiff. This was primarily squeezed to accomodate the additional Fishguard services. 158s also have 2 jobs and, from May, it would appear a 175 is also involved.

 

[Parallel]

One thing I've noticed more in South Wales than anywhere else in the UK is passengers talking about how they feel the trains (in particular the 150s) are unsafe. I don't really understand why people have this viewpoint but I've overheard similar conversations a few times now whilst on the Valleys - The most recent was two well spoken guys saying that Arriva's trains feel unsafe and like they were going to fall to pieces at any moment.

The 150s ATW operate feel exactly the same as sprinters operated by GWR and Northern and I'd say the moans were unfounded - Just because the units are older, it doesn't make them unsafe. I'm wondering if passengers have a 'hate campaign' against Arriva for whatever reason (Overcrowding? Disruption caused by signalling failures?) when it's more of a problem with the franchise or Network Rail than the TOC. It's kind of reminiscent of FGW around Bristol when they took over from Wessex Trains.

Whichever TOC takes over W&B - it will be a really tough first year...

 

[gareth950]

One thing I've noticed more in South Wales than anywhere else in the UK is passengers talking about how they feel the trains (in particular the 150s) are unsafe. I don't really understand why people have this viewpoint but I've overheard similar conversations a few times now whilst on the Valleys - The most recent was two well spoken guys saying that Arriva's trains feel unsafe and like they was going to fall to pieces at any moment.

The 150s ATW operate feel exactly the same as sprinters operated by GWR and Northern and I'd say the moans were unfounded - Just because the units are older, it doesn't make them unsafe. I'm wondering if passengers have a 'hate campaign' against Arriva for whatever reason (Overcrowding? Disruption caused by signalling failures?) when it's more of a problem with the franchise or Network Rail than the TOC. It's kind of reminiscent of FGW around Bristol when they took over from Wessex Trains.

Whichever TOC takes over W&B - it will be a really tough first year...

I don't understand the 'unsafe' comments about the 150s. Maybe they meant the valleys fleet in general, including the Pacers. I hate the 142s especially and have felt 'unsafe' on them myself, especially at speed with the middle gangway parts flapping about all over the place and making a racket along with the feeling of being on a bouncy castle.
There is a huge dislike, even hatred among some passengers towars ATW, particularly on the valleys network. The RPIs, or 'Green Gestapo' as they are known locally, with their agressive behaviour ahd extorniate fines, aren't helping ATW's image and PR. Frightening people is certainly not the way to force behaviour change regarding fare evasion in South Wales.

 

[PHILIPE]

I don't understand the 'unsafe' comments about the 150s. Maybe they meant the valleys fleet in general, including the Pacers. I hate the 142s especially and have felt 'unsafe' on them myself, especially at speed with the middle gangway parts flapping about all over the place and making a racket along with the feeling of being on a bouncy castle.
There is a huge dislike, even hatred among some passengers towars ATW, particularly on the valleys network. The RPIs, or 'Green Gestapo' as they are known locally, with their agressive behaviour ahd extorniate fines, aren't helping ATW's image and PR. Frightening people is certainly not the way to force behaviour change regarding fare evasion in South Wales.

I've tweeted this point to ATW about the Gestapo and as to why ATW should have to earn themselves a bad name due to these outsourced staff, little more than bully boy heavies at times who even approach passengers waiting in a TVM queue to buy tickets. Saw mentioned in Media this week that ATW claim they are properly trained.

 

[gareth950]

I've tweeted this point to ATW about the Gestapo and as to why ATW should have to earn themselves a bad name due to these outsourced staff, little more than bully boy heavies at times who even approach passengers waiting in a TVM queue to buy tickets. Saw mentioned in Media this week that ATW claim they are properly trained.

'Bully boy heavies' is exactly right. I had an issue with a TVM this week where it didn't print the tickets but still took the payment from my card. After explaining to the guard on-board who know about the problem with said TVM he told me I needed to sort it out at Central.

When I approached the excess fares office at Central an RPI twice my size was looming behind me ready to pounce. When I pointed out to the person at the ticket office how you can't even rely on the TVMs to print tickets so their revenue enforement policy is useless, unsurprisingly I got no reply.

 

[Gareth Marston]

One thing I've noticed more in South Wales than anywhere else in the UK is passengers talking about how they feel the trains (in particular the 150s) are unsafe. I don't really understand why people have this viewpoint but I've overheard similar conversations a few times now whilst on the Valleys - The most recent was two well spoken guys saying that Arriva's trains feel unsafe and like they was going to fall to pieces at any moment.

The 150s ATW operate feel exactly the same as sprinters operated by GWR and Northern and I'd say the moans were unfounded - Just because the units are older, it doesn't make them unsafe. I'm wondering if passengers have a 'hate campaign' against Arriva for whatever reason (Overcrowding? Disruption caused by signalling failures?) when it's more of a problem with the franchise or Network Rail than the TOC. It's kind of reminiscent of FGW around Bristol when they took over from Wessex.

welshGovernmet / Welsh Labour haven't helped as they've pretended the problems nothing to do with themselves and tried to ride the nasty private operator bandwagon conveniently overlooking it was a Labour Government that created the flawed franchise agreement signed off by the Labour MP for Pontypridd who was SOS at the time.

 

[Gareth Marston]

'Bully boy heavies' is exactly right. I had an issue with a TVM this week where it didn't print the tickets but still took the payment from my card. After explaining to the guard on-board who know about the problem with said TVM he told me I needed to sort it out at Central.

When I approached the excess fares office at Central an RPI twice my size was looming behind me ready to pounce. When I pointed out to the person at the ticket office how you can't even rely on the TVMs to print tickets so their revenue enforement policy is useless, unsurprisingly I got no reply.

The solution is for the public to buy in to what the railways provide in South Wales. The current franchise will not provide it.

 

[Parallel]

I've tweeted this point to ATW about the Gestapo and as to why ATW should have to earn themselves a bad name due to these outsourced staff, little more than bully boy heavies at times who even approach passengers waiting in a TVM queue to buy tickets. Saw mentioned in Media this week that ATW claim they are properly trained.

Hmm, it might be better to employ the official 'penalty fare' scheme next franchise then. People being charged £20 for walking past an opportunity won't make the news either - And repeat offenders being prosecuted won't have the same impact. The "SMUG/MUG" posters at stations aren't particularly professional, though I can see why they're trying to discourage ticketless travel.

The problem is that many TVMs are card only due to vandalism. So RPIs can only issue fixed penalties/penalty fares to passengers from these stations if they are intending to pay with card... And once people figure this out, the 'pay when challenged brigade' will carry cash around with them!

I guess the Green Gestapo mainly work at stations rather than trains, due to the overcrowding at peak times?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think the D Trains will replace the pacers until electrification of the core valley lines network is completed with Porterbrook suggestion the use of class 319 flex units on some routes to free up class 150/2's to be sent away for DDA modifications.

What official source do you have that confirms that a contract for the Vivarail Class 230 units has, or is in the process of, being signed and what is the number of these units in the contract?

 

[Gareth Marston]

What official source do you have that confirms that a contract for the Vivarail Class 230 units has, or is in the process of, being signed and what is the number of these units in the contract?

The WG Minister has made favourable comments about The 230's in public saying their quite good. Why would he do that? Join the dots with the looming PRM crisis in Wales.

 

[PHILIPE]

The WG Minister has made favourable comments about The 230's in public saying their quite good. Why would he do that? Join the dots with the looming PRM crisis in Wales.

Just wondering what the Minister knows about the 230s

 

[Gareth Marston]

Just wondering what the Minister knows about the 230s

Probably very little his comments sound like part of a softening up process. No doubt WG will place the blame at Westminsters door.

On a more positive note its struck me that two of the bidders are in a position to get good terms for new rolling stock as add on orders to New stock for franchises they've just won. abeilo with Stadler Flints and Bombardier Aventras and Arriva with CAF 195's.

Might give them a slight edge?

 

[northwichcat]

On a more positive note its struck me that two of the bidders are in a position to get good terms for new rolling stock as add on orders to New stock for franchises they've just won. abeilo with Stadler Flints and Bombardier Aventras and Arriva with CAF 195's.

Depends what add-on option there are in the contracts, there's normally a limit to how many additional carriages can be acquired on the same terms and an expiry date for that option.

As the ROSCOs are ordering the new trains, rather than the TOCs it might not make that much difference who's bidding. First Group got the 387 add-on option for the GWR franchise despite the original 387 order being for a Govia operated franchise.

 

[gareth950]

Probably very little his comments sound like part of a softening up process. No doubt WG will place the blame at Westminsters door.

Welsh Govt have already started the blame game, rightly or wrongly. The article 'Welsh PRM compliance very difficult' on pg. 13 of this month's Modern Railways explains it all, particularly where the WG says that it hasn't had the power to deal with ROSCOs re: PRM compliance due to the delay in the powers being devolved from Westminster.

No doubt Westminster will come back at that and say it's all Cardiff Bay's fault. :roll:

 

[Brian Aylott]

I assume 158s and 175s are 2020-compliant

Why do you make this assumption?

The ATW 158s - are not fully compliant - some 158s fleets are now going through works to make them compliant - but those franchises will be holding on to them with very few exceptions - they have startedmaking these 158 fleets fully compliant

Brian

 

[craigybagel]

Why do you make this assumption?

The ATW 158s - are not fully compliant - some 158s fleets are now going through works to make them compliant - but those franchises will be holding on to them with very few exceptions - they have startedmaking these 158 fleets fully compliant

Brian

The ATW 158s have already had the toilets modded when they were refurbished a few years ago. If there is anything left on them not compliant it shouldn't be too big a job to fix.

 

[Parallel]

The ATW 158s have already had the toilets modded when they were refurbished a few years ago. If there is anything left on them not compliant it shouldn't be too big a job to fix.

The toilets on the ATW 158s definitely still need retention tanks, quite why these weren't fitted whilst they were undergoing refurbishment, I have no idea. I'm not sure what else they need, though new door sounders will probably be another thing.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The toilets on the ATW 158s definitely still need retention tanks, quite why these weren't fitted whilst they were undergoing refurbishment, I have no idea. I'm not sure what else they need, though new door sounders will probably be another thing.

One bidder told SARPA retention toilets were to fitted to the 158's.

 

[craigybagel]

The toilets on the ATW 158s definitely still need retention tanks, quite why these weren't fitted whilst they were undergoing refurbishment, I have no idea. I'm not sure what else they need, though new door sounders will probably be another thing.

Probably because most of the 158s stable overnight at locations where there are no facilities at present to empty the tanks. Presumably those two issues will be dealt with simultaneously.....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The toilets on the ATW 158s definitely still need retention tanks, quite why these weren't fitted whilst they were undergoing refurbishment, I have no idea. I'm not sure what else they need, though new door sounders will probably be another thing.

Toilet tanks aren't a PRM issue are they?
Obviously part of a desired upgrade, and required by the DfT, but I don't think the same legislation and deadline applies.
Toilet accessibility and controls will be PRM issues.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Why do you make this assumption?

Because the 175s are fairly modern, and would have been built to the PRM spec or close to it. The 158s have been refurbished and although at the time I thought they were not done to PRM standard (because the accessible toilet is still fairly small compared to that on modern units) I have since read that the current GWR 158 refurb (which is to PRM spec) also retains the accessible toilet at its original size. The facts that the GWR 158 PRM mods were relatively minor, and that the ATW 158s gained a passenger information system (a PRM requirement) when refurbished, leads me to assume that the ATW 158 refurb was done to PRM standards.

 

[Llanigraham]

Why do you make this assumption?

The ATW 158s - are not fully compliant - some 158s fleets are now going through works to make them compliant - but those franchises will be holding on to them with very few exceptions - they have startedmaking these 158 fleets fully compliant

Brian

In what way aren't they fully compliant?

 

[craigybagel]

In what way aren't they fully compliant?

Some form of aural warning for the doors opening for a start...I can't think of anything else off hand although I'm not an expert in these manners.