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Driver: Failing a Train

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Berries

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I'd like to hear stories about when you've had to fail a train. I've heard from other drivers that control and maintenance have tried to get them to continue on (to avoid delay attribution fines) and the driver has either had to lay down the law (or got totally shafted along the way).
 
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Master29

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I think you won`t get much information from anyone on this. As I`m guessing there would always be an enquiry as a matter of practice people wouldn`t be willing to give away potentially compromising information. I know I wouldn`t. I may be wrong however.
 

dk1

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Drivers fail trains every day on depots & refuse to take them. They do not usually get challenged as it's either fix it or it doesn't move. On the main line if you think something is wrong i.e brakes not performing correctly or cold/hot cabs then the driver will take it to a suitable place to terminate. Again if he/she is right then apart from possibly writing a report, nothing else will be said.
 

bramling

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I'd like to hear stories about when you've had to fail a train. I've heard from other drivers that control and maintenance have tried to get them to continue on (to avoid delay attribution fines) and the driver has either had to lay down the law (or got totally shafted along the way).

One that I can remember is a train which had no compressors, where the driver was put under some pressure to keep the train in service by control staff who didn't fully understand/appreciate what they were being told. Needless to say the train eventually ran out of air, and then sat down for two hours in a very inconvenient location, complete with passengers.

Generally speaking the driver *shouldn't* be put under pressure. He's in charge of the train, and providing he's complying with company policy and/or the Rule Book then there should never be any comeback. As long as the driver can justify their actions in a report if requested then that's normally the last they hear about it. This holds true most of the time, but occasionally some people (not just management but control staff too) will try it on, either through lack of knowledge or motivated by other reasons.

The difficulty is that *most* of the time, keeping a train in service with a defect where it shouldn't be in service probably won't result in a problem, either through luck or because other layers of safety keep things safe. However, as in the example described above, there are times when you're running on borrowed time which eventually runs out, and luck can never (and shouldn't) be relied on either. The ultimate reminder of the latter is, of course, the Southall accident.
 
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Berries

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I understand that it would be difficult to give specific stories, so rephrase the question slightly.

What is most seemingly insignificant reason you have failed a train?

Not the obvious like isolated brakes, TPWS or AWS. A guard told me about a failed train where the toilet wouldn't flush (unpleasant description I'm afraid).

Just reading about the Southall accident. How awful :'(
 

Llanigraham

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I've known trains fail for:
both horns failed en-route
windscreen wiper broke en-route
all internal lights failed en-route
 

theageofthetra

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Most common ones I have had are defective drivers side wipers/washer, PA faults & drivers side blind. In all cases the cab involved got boxed in once the train was taken out of service.
 

RPM

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I suppose the ones that would seem insignificant are things like failing a train for lack of cab air con or heating. Personally I've never done either, but if you feel the cab environment might cause you to lose concentration you'd be within your rights to fail it. It kind of depends on how extreme the situation is. If the air con failed on a warmish day I'd open the windows and get on with it. If it failed on a stiflingly hot day I might fail the train because if I screw up because of the heat, the first thing I'll be asked is why I took the train in that condition.
 

Bookd

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Might it be that people now are more sensitive? If there is a key safety failure that is one thing, but the driver of a steam loco going tender first in the face of a blizzard would have thought a cab to be a luxury, let alone working air conditioning.
 

Bromley boy

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Might it be that people now are more sensitive? If there is a key safety failure that is one thing, but the driver of a steam loco going tender first in the face of a blizzard would have thought a cab to be a luxury, let alone working air conditioning.

While that may be partially true, there's a lot more pressure today not to make mistakes than there was back in steam days. Once a mistake is made it's too late. Any attempt to blame it on the distraction would be met with the question "well, why did you continue if you were distracted?".

I spoke to a driver recently who had to fail a train due to vomit seeping under the cab door from the passenger saloon. Obviously a massive distraction risk, not to mention a bio-hazard, despite there being nothing physically wrong with the train!
 

RPM

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While that may be partially true, there's a lot more pressure today not to make mistakes than there was back in steam days. Once a mistake is made it's too late. Any attempt to blame it on the distraction would be met with the question "well, why did you continue if you were distracted?".

I spoke to a driver recently who had to fail a train due to vomit seeping under the cab door from the passenger saloon. Obviously a massive distraction risk, not to mention a bio-hazard, despite there being nothing physically wrong with the train!

That's exactly it. If you went a few feet past a signal at danger back then, the signalman would call you a four letter word and tell you to set back. Do it now and your career is in jeopardy. With that sword of Damocles hanging over your head, you don't take any risks.
 

ExRes

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Might it be that people now are more sensitive? If there is a key safety failure that is one thing, but the driver of a steam loco going tender first in the face of a blizzard would have thought a cab to be a luxury, let alone working air conditioning.

Your point is taken, but you should try driving an HST from St Pancras to Manchester Piccadilly on an august day with no aircon though, to get an idea standing in a greenhouse for a couple of hours is a fair comparison
 

theageofthetra

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I suppose the ones that would seem insignificant are things like failing a train for lack of cab air con or heating. Personally I've never done either, but if you feel the cab environment might cause you to lose concentration you'd be within your rights to fail it. It kind of depends on how extreme the situation is. If the air con failed on a warmish day I'd open the windows and get on with it. If it failed on a stiflingly hot day I might fail the train because if I screw up because of the heat, the first thing I'll be asked is why I took the train in that condition.

Can think of SPAD where a driver lost concentration because of defective AC. Most units cabs are like greenhouses and get to 35-40c on a 27c day very quickly.
 

theageofthetra

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Your point is taken, but you should try driving an HST from St Pancras to Manchester Piccadilly on an august day with no aircon though, to get an idea standing in a greenhouse for a couple of hours is a fair comparison
Completely agree. If there is an incident the first question will be why you didn't report the defect.
 

theageofthetra

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That's exactly it. If you went a few feet past a signal at danger back then, the signalman would call you a four letter word and tell you to set back. Do it now and your career is in jeopardy. With that sword of Damocles hanging over your head, you

Quite correct. If you report a defect I have personally found MDC or control to always err (correctly) on the side of caution and get the unit to where the defective cab can be boxed in.
 
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dk1

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I have agreed to continue with a class 90 with failed air-con on a scorching hot day but advised that I will run at no more than 80mph. Anything more with the door windows lowered (they are the only opening windows) causes so much pressure in the cab it gives me earache. The GA 90s (001-015) are also far superior as they where fitted with side blinds which helps no end with heat issues.
 

broadgage

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A train at Paddington was failed by the driver due to a "strong smell of burning electrical equipment in the cab"

After considerable investigation this was traced to the train on the adjacent platform that had suffered an exhaust fire earlier.
The driver then agreed to take the train, but did not appear entirely convinced and requested that a fitter travelled on the train.

The burning smell was noticeable on the platform, and the fire brigade sent for as a precaution but not needed.
 

HarleyDavidson

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I could tell you loads of times when I failed them, however you have to bear in mind that nowadays them "upstairs" are sensitive little souls and may try and bust you for bringing the company into disrepute. So it's best to stay schtum.
 

Tramfan

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I often read people complaining when a Tyne & Wear Metro set is withdrawn from service that "it still managed to leave the station quick enough" or words to that effect. Clearly some of the general public assume that unless a train is literally a complete failure, i.e. unable to move they don't see why they have had to leave the train.
 

JN114

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As a controller I'll flip the story around a bit and explain it from our side -

Yes, there are certain names that crop up more often than others - generally with "pet faults" that only seem to manifest when they are driving/guard. But bottom line if train crew aren't willing to take it then that's that. Either we find a driver/guard who is, get the fault fixed/mitigated (e.g. boxed in or similar) or a combination of both. There may be a degree of coercive discussion to try and get the train to a place where assistance may be more readily provided, but no really does mean no. Performance doesn't enter into the matter.

EDIT for clarity, as I sounded quite flippant on re-read - "find a driver/guard who will" applies only after a member of engineering staff has been unable to recreate a fault, but the existing train crew remain unwilling to take the set.
 
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SpacePhoenix

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Is there much variation on what a train crew will tolerate with a fault before they'll fail a train?
 

bramling

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Is there much variation on what a train crew will tolerate with a fault before they'll fail a train?

Without appearing too cynical, yes there can be. Some people just like finding faults for the sake of it (if one looks hard enough one will normally find something), whilst there are also some people who delight in finding faults on the chance that it will get them out of a load of work. On the flip side, others will keep a train going if it's their last trip. Not so much for safety systems where I'd expect 100% adherence to rules and procedures, but for more minor stuff there certainly are some grey areas and scope for interpreting rules in different ways. The classic grey area used to be "withdraw at the first available opportunity without causing delay or cancellation", but that got tightened up heavily after Southall.
 

dk1

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As a controller I'll flip the story around a bit and explain it from our side -

Yes, there are certain names that crop up more often than others - generally with "pet faults" that only seem to manifest when they are driving/guard. But bottom line if train crew aren't willing to take it then that's that. Either we find a driver/guard who is, get the fault fixed/mitigated (e.g. boxed in or similar) or a combination of both. There may be a degree of coercive discussion to try and get the train to a place where assistance may be more readily provided, but no really does mean no. Performance doesn't enter into the matter.

EDIT for clarity, as I sounded quite flippant on re-read - "find a driver/guard who will" applies only after a member of engineering staff has been unable to recreate a fault, but the existing train crew remain unwilling to take the set.

Spot on. I for one often read the repair books & keep up to date with the 'live' Control Log. It is often the same names cropping up again & again. Many controllers/fleet managers are also personal friends & they also mention these same Traincrew members.
 
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