Simply NO! My point was a general one and not specific to any dispute or otherwise. Sorry to disappoint.
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RMT dispute on Merseyrail
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Is it? If half the working population is unemployed (not forgetting the pensioners), who is going to pay for them to live? Mmmmm let me guess, the remaining half who are employed and paying sky high taxes? The sums would not add up. Nowt to do with a communist state or whatever.
Nothing wrong with "progress" as we would not be on here as an example and human nature to seek new things but there comes a time when you got to balance things out with the needs of all people in the country. Likewise, you suggest machines and robots are actually going to earn money for us? Have you told the CEO's, owners of various companies, etc that they need to re-examine how we deal with earning money , I think they would have something to say about that. They get technology in to ultimately for less expenditure and to make profits, lined their own pockets along with the shareholders.
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Bletchleyite
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It would have to come alongside a shift from taxing income to taxing assets and companies.
Robertj21a
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I have no idea where 'half the working population is unemployed' has come from - we can all make up stories that suit our own agenda, but it would be more helpful to stick to some basic facts.
MerseyTravel havent ordered barely enough trains to cover the existing work, there definitely arent enough to expand the network!
50% unemployment is news to me.
You have taken the above comment out of context with my original replies (see also message 964). Clearly I am referring to the "future" if we let more automation / technology replace continue to replace human work (employment) if what ever way that may be and it could take that beyond what the country could afford to sustain the human population. When that may happen, I will clearly be no longer here.
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There is the Rock n Roll Marathon on 28th May. A rail strike on that day could be disruptive as there are lots of road closures, so more people than normal rely on the trains to get them into Liverpool city centre.
There's also the Orange Lodge marches in Southport on 12th July.
WatcherZero
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31.84m in work, population 63m so yeah its 50%, 8m of working age are not in work or looking for work, couple of million unemployed and rest are too young or too old to work.
As you say, a couple of million are unemployed, not 50%!
313103
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Of the 50% working are we including the couple of million on zero hours contracts and the couple of million on part time contracts? Whilst some people choose to work part time in the area i live in getting full time work is very hard many of the retail outlets are only taking on part time workers, there is no heavy industry apart from the steelworks and there are reducing numbers, Metal Box one of the biggest companies in Neath is on the verge of closure. I dont know what the total statistics actually are though, but i do know that unemployment in the area i live in are high.
The problem of doing statistics about people in employment are distorted by the use of part time work and zero hours work that are added to people in full term employment. Not only that how many people are doing two or even three part time jobs because either their is no full time work available are that the part time work & zero hours work is poorly paid
What the statistics should show is How many people are in full term employment, then show those on zero hours contracts and those on part time work.
Whilst it is not 50/50 it is once you have sorted out the 8 million who can work but for whatever reason they are not and the couple of million registered as unemployed those on zero hours contracts and those forced to do more then one part time job the figures jump quite significantly, it is more a 65/35. Not just a couple of million.
Trying to keep this on topic how many Guards will lose there jobs and what are the employment opportunity's in the area as a whole for those who will have their contracts terminated?
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As has been repeated many times, there won't be any compulsory redundancies.
A guard is unlikely to find alternative employment with similar pay and conditions for their skill set. Draw your own conclusion.
313103
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Ok, i should amend the last sentence to say ' who will have their contracts terminated through redundancy, voluntary or otherwise.
And yes i have drawn my own conclusion, there will be no other skill set, certainly no where near the same salary, and almost certainly very few full time jobs. So all in all nothing.
Does this not say something about:
a) The likelihood that guards are paid above the market rate for their skill set, and
b) Why there's such a fear of the grade becoming obsolete?
313103
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No it doesn't imho, if anything other industries should up the salary of there staff, rather then the accusation that railway staff are overpaid and underworked.
The grade becoming obsolete would happen even if the staff were paid minimum wage, we have throughout this thread and numerous others, and it's all about reducing or getting rid of any ability the RMT have, it is also about reducing the total headcount, it is also about driving down the grade so as an excuse of saying you don't deserve to get a decent salary, it is also about the government wanting to stop subsidising the private rail industry. Some people wouldn't get out of bed at 04:00 in the morning for what I get paid and for what's worth my salary is £22,000. That includes quite a few on here.
313103
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If that's the case lets continue this race to the bottom, what do think i should actually get then £20,000? £17,000? £15,000? £10,000? perhaps you should suggest i should do it voluntary and be grateful for it. I think i will put this in the staff suggestion scheme and see how many people will leave overnight.
I think i have a good skill set, it takes quite a lot for me to hold back at the abuse one gets every day.
Who can say what a job is worth? Theoretically in a free market every job should be paid what it's worth, but we all know that isn't the case. How much is Charles Horton worth (can you get negative pay?)?
In reality it's a question of how much the company want to pay, modified by both market forces and unions. Some would like to see the latter taken out of the equation and one of them is running DfT rail.
In reality it's a question of how much the company want to pay, modified by both market forces and unions. Some would like to see the latter taken out of the equation and one of them is running DfT rail.
A few years ago, it was union resistance which was one of the stumbling blocks in devolving responsibility for Merseyrail's infrastructure - presumably in part on the grounds that the engineers would be coming out of a national pay structure and into a regional one where they would be evaluated against what (for example) the going rate for an electrical engineer in Merseyside was. In other words, negligible pay rises as far as the eye can see.
If I were the RMT, I'd be looking at the week of 19th June for another strike, purely on the grounds that it's when full Wirral Line service is due to resume. From a strategic point of view, it strikes me as potentially fruitless to strike again while a large part of Merseyrail's customer base is used to making alternative arrangements- some may already have found that Arriva's cross-river buses are no less convenient.
Interesting to note from Today's Railways, however, that the order with Stadler has an option for another 60 units - perhaps (after the mayoral election), Merseytravel are hoping for the money to take on some extra units and create some more driving jobs. It's what BR tended to do when they went DOO in the 1980s- recycle the productivity gains into service enhancements.
If I were the RMT, I'd be looking at the week of 19th June for another strike, purely on the grounds that it's when full Wirral Line service is due to resume. From a strategic point of view, it strikes me as potentially fruitless to strike again while a large part of Merseyrail's customer base is used to making alternative arrangements- some may already have found that Arriva's cross-river buses are no less convenient.
Interesting to note from Today's Railways, however, that the order with Stadler has an option for another 60 units - perhaps (after the mayoral election), Merseytravel are hoping for the money to take on some extra units and create some more driving jobs. It's what BR tended to do when they went DOO in the 1980s- recycle the productivity gains into service enhancements.
Bletchleyite
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It would be very nice (and a good outcome to me) were Merseyrail to switch from a 15 to a 10 minute headway (20 minutes evening and Sunday). More units could help achieve that.
WatcherZero
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The option for another 60 carriages (15 trains) allows for some extra if demand exceeds predictions or reliability doesn't meet up to expectation as well as the Skelmersdale extension and possible dual voltage services beyond the Merseyrail lines if the idea for segregating commuter services away from Lime Street to allow more long distance platform capacity proceeds.
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Senior management running the industry just after privatisation are surely partly to blame for the current mess, they could have faced up to the challenge of modernising/ restructuring the grade back then instead most just opted for the quiet life
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313103
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The grade was restructured and changed to suit companies needs on silverlink in 1997 and further by London Overground in 2009 for when new trains came in and at no extra cost, yet it still didn't save the grade though did it?
The current DOO schemes being implemented are being done so for a not to dissimilar DOO plans introduced by British Rail, and that is to save money whichever way you look at it.
Robertj21a
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Railways, industry, Civil Service etc etc - I would hope that they are all looking at ways to save money. Most people want to see value for money, whether it's the way in which their council spends local taxes, or manufacturers make cars - or how the railways are run.
New strike date announced:
http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-new-strike-date-on-merseyrail160517/
RMT confirms new strike date on Merseyrail in fight to retain safety-critical guards.
RAIL UNION RMT has confirmed a new strike date on Merseyrail after the continued point-blank refusal by the company to make any progress whatsoever over the crucial issue at the heart of the on-going dispute - the future of the safety critical role of the guard.
Drivers and guards will take action as follows:
Members will strike for 24 hours between 0001 hours and 2359 hours on Tuesday 30th May.
http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-new-strike-date-on-merseyrail160517/
RMT confirms new strike date on Merseyrail in fight to retain safety-critical guards.
RAIL UNION RMT has confirmed a new strike date on Merseyrail after the continued point-blank refusal by the company to make any progress whatsoever over the crucial issue at the heart of the on-going dispute - the future of the safety critical role of the guard.
Drivers and guards will take action as follows:
Members will strike for 24 hours between 0001 hours and 2359 hours on Tuesday 30th May.
Robertj21a
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Tetchytyke
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An interesting development in the dispute:
For those who can't read it, the relevant text is below:
As you know, we recruit trainee drivers from the guards grade. One part of the selection process looks at a guard's performance in the previous 12 months, based on a number of performance issues.
This notice is to remind you that taking strike action is absence without leave (AWOL). So if you are absent from duty by taking strike action it will be recorded as AWOL on your performance file.
In line with our established recruitment process, any guard with three recorded performance issues in the previous 12 months on their file will not be considered for promotion to trainee driver.
We will be advertising trainee driver positions in the next couple of months so you need to take this into account if you have aspirations to become a Merseyrail Train Driver.
Regards,
Jane English
HR Director
So that pretty much makes a mockery of Merseyrail's position that DOO is a good thing because nobody will lose their job and that guards will have extra promotion opportunities in the new system.
Looks like Serco have been taking their HR cue from the rest of their business.
For those who can't read it, the relevant text is below:
As you know, we recruit trainee drivers from the guards grade. One part of the selection process looks at a guard's performance in the previous 12 months, based on a number of performance issues.
This notice is to remind you that taking strike action is absence without leave (AWOL). So if you are absent from duty by taking strike action it will be recorded as AWOL on your performance file.
In line with our established recruitment process, any guard with three recorded performance issues in the previous 12 months on their file will not be considered for promotion to trainee driver.
We will be advertising trainee driver positions in the next couple of months so you need to take this into account if you have aspirations to become a Merseyrail Train Driver.
Regards,
Jane English
HR Director
So that pretty much makes a mockery of Merseyrail's position that DOO is a good thing because nobody will lose their job and that guards will have extra promotion opportunities in the new system.
Looks like Serco have been taking their HR cue from the rest of their business.
BestWestern
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An interesting development in the dispute:
For those who can't read it, the relevant text is below:
As you know, we recruit trainee drivers from the guards grade. One part of the selection process looks at a guard's performance in the previous 12 months, based on a number of performance issues.
This notice is to remind you that taking strike action is absence without leave (AWOL). So if you are absent from duty by taking strike action it will be recorded as AWOL on your performance file.
In line with our established recruitment process, any guard with three recorded performance issues in the previous 12 months on their file will not be considered for promotion to trainee driver.
We will be advertising trainee driver positions in the next couple of months so you need to take this into account if you have aspirations to become a Merseyrail Train Driver.
Regards,
Jane English
HR Director
So that pretty much makes a mockery of Merseyrail's position that DOO is a good thing because nobody will lose their job and that guards will have extra promotion opportunities in the new system.
Looks like Serco have been taking their HR cue from the rest of their business.
What a thoroughly unpleasant organisation.
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