Replacement of other tube stock

[LiftFan]

Now that the D78s are all gone and the sub surface lines have a singular train across the whole network for the next 30-50 years does anyone know about the future of certain tube stock? NTfL hasn't gotten any news for a while so it's not easy to know if it's been swept under the carpet now... The almost certain thing is the 73TS will be the first to go as it is looking rather tired now and it has to cope with being the tourist line. The 72TS definately feel like they have a lot more life left now that the refurbishments are here, whilst the W&C should be replaced before the Centrals 92 stock given it only goes two stops and has a tiny depot (plus a send off tour would be very boring on that line) however it is still mentioned in the scheme. The 95 and 96 are in much better shape and have no talk on replacement at all. The 09 stock is way too new to know but it could end up like the D stock and get taken out early to add a consistent train for the deep level lines.

 

[birchesgreen]

For a start its not called NTfL anymore its Deep Tube Upgrade i believe which is a relief as the NTfL name sucked.

The timetable seems to change from time to time but i think the 73ts will be gone by mid-2020s, the 72ts by 2030 and the 92ts by the early 2030s.

Then why knows but by the time the rest are replaced the 95/96 will be approaching 40 years service anyway so probably be a replacement around 2040. Don't worry about the 09ts yet, its got a long time!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How much useful lifespan will the current W&C stock have when it gets replaced? Enough to be viable for the Island Line?

 

[Mikey C]

For a start its not called NTfL anymore its Deep Tube Upgrade i believe which is a relief as the NTfL name sucked.

The timetable seems to change from time to time but i think the 73ts will be gone by mid-2020s, the 72ts by 2030 and the 92ts by the early 2030s.

Then why knows but by the time the rest are replaced the 95/96 will be approaching 40 years service anyway so probably be a replacement around 2040. Don't worry about the 09ts yet, its got a long time!

By the time the 95/96s are replaced, technology may have moved forward again, while the 2009 is slightly fatter than the other stock so unique to the Victoria Line

The 72 stock will be ancient by the time it's replaced, but as the Bakerloo line is relatively quiet, it seems to be less of a priority!

 

[rebmcr]

'72TS got the 10 year life extension so it can hold on until Piccadilly deliveries are done.

W&C stock is handled very closely with the '92TS, so their replacements will go hand-in-hand. The viability of tours has zero effect on the decision-making process, operational considerations are what's important.

There are new-build '95TS and '96TS orders imminent, so they won't be going anywhere in a hurry. Once the first batch is life-expired, the add-ons will have some life left, so who knows what will happen there. It wouldn't be possible to integrate them into one smaller fleet since the traction is so different. I personally would not have ordered extra for both fleets, instead swapping them around and making a bigger top-up order for one of the types (the numbers between the Northern branches, Jubilee, and extensions would have worked for that).

 

[D365]

How much useful lifespan will the current W&C stock have when it gets replaced? Enough to be viable for the Island Line?

The last time this discussion came up, it was the 73TS that was touted, rather than the 92TS, which are very different to the existing rolling stock.

'There are new-build '95TS and '96TS orders imminent, so they won't be going anywhere in a hurry. Once the first batch is life-expired, the add-ons will have some life left, so who knows what will happen there. It wouldn't be possible to integrate them into one smaller fleet since the traction is so different. I personally would not have ordered extra for both fleets, instead swapping them around and making a bigger top-up order for one of the types (the numbers between the Northern branches, Jubilee, and extensions would have worked for that).

There have been plans to upgrade the 96TS traction package at the same time as the new 'clone' rolling stock is bought in.

 

[birchesgreen]

Island Line have been holding out for 73ts for a long time...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The last time this discussion came up, it was the 73TS that was touted, rather than the 92TS, which are very different to the existing rolling stock.

Island Line have been holding out for 73ts for a long time...

What sort of state will the 73 stock be in when it finally leaves the Pic? Given that the last refurb on them (according to Wikipedia) was in 2001, they're likely to need a major strip down and overhaul before going anywhere near the Island Line (which also really needs its track overhauled as well)


if it wasn't for the Vic line could tube stock have been ordered that could have run on any of the "tube" lines (using the smallest diameter tunnels as the max permitted height)?

 

[317 forever]

I think the idea is that this new stock will replace 1973 stock, then 1992 stock then 1972 Mk II stock then potentially 1995/96 stock too. Then we would just have this 2020s stock, 2009 stock and S7/S8 stock.

 

[birchesgreen]

What sort of state will the 73 stock be in when it finally leaves the Pic? Given that the last refurb on them (according to Wikipedia) was in 2001, they're likely to need a major strip down and overhaul before going anywhere near the Island Line (which also really needs its track overhauled as well)


if it wasn't for the Vic line could tube stock have been ordered that could have run on any of the "tube" lines (using the smallest diameter tunnels as the max permitted height)?

Well yes but the 73ts replacement was supposed to happen years ago. The Island Line probably wish they'd have gone for the 83ts now and not turned it down.

There is no reason why the Victoria Line has to have wider trains, for most of its life the line ran 67ts stock which was basically the same as what runs on the Bakerloo now. However its unlikely they would revert back and no need as the 09ts will be viable until mid-century...

 

[birchesgreen]

I think the idea is that this new stock will replace 1973 stock, then 1992 stock then 1972 Mk II stock then potentially 1995/96 stock too. Then we would just have this 2020s stock, 2009 stock and S7/S8 stock.

Deep Tube Upgrade Programme does not include the 95/96. By the time the others have been replaced in the 2030s i guess it may be time to think about replacing them but one thing at a time...

 

[Mikey C]

Well yes but the 73ts replacement was supposed to happen years ago. The Island Line probably wish they'd have gone for the 83ts now and not turned it down.

There is no reason why the Victoria Line has to have wider trains, for most of its life the line ran 67ts stock which was basically the same as what runs on the Bakerloo now. However its unlikely they would revert back and no need as the 09ts will be viable until mid-century...

It's beneficial for passengers though. It's noticeable that the 2009s have extra headroom near the door, when compared with other stock, which I genuinely notice and appreciate!

 

[317666]

I was always led to believe that 73TS would be problematic on the Island Line because of their longer car lengths compared to 38TS, or has that issue been debunked?

 

[LiftFan]

It does sadden me that in 100 years or so we may end up having just two variations of rolling stock across the whole underground. Great for maintenance, terrible for spotters.

 

[birchesgreen]

Well its not that much of a variety now, the 72 and 73 are pretty similar as are the 95/96 of course. The different tube lines have their own ideosynchrities that there will probably be enough variations even of a standard base.

 

[LiftFan]

At least with the 72/73 whilst the outsides are very similar they do have their differences, such as the drastic change in the 73 when refurbished whilst the 72 is in near original condition, it being the last stock with no car end windows. The 95/96 do look almost identical inside and out although the traction motor sounds are most certainly not, the 96 sounds like a networker whilst the 95 just seems to have a unique noise to it. There is then the 92 stocks that the Central and WC use, also with minor differences such as armrests for the WC and the length of the trains. There is then the 09 which seems to be completely separate to the rest of the tube stock in style.

 

[317 forever]

Deep Tube Upgrade Programme does not include the 95/96. By the time the others have been replaced in the 2030s i guess it may be time to think about replacing them but one thing at a time...

It does mean that we will be down to 4 types of Underground stock: 1995/96, 2009, 2020s and S7/S8. Thankfully the DLR and even the National Rail lines including CrossRail/Elizabeth Line will in a sense maintain some variety.

 

[birchesgreen]

Platform Edge Doors (PEDs) will be spreading so you may see less of the trains anyway

 

[MatthewRead]

I really want the 1973 tube stock replaced ASAP because it means that the Piccadilly line will serve Turnham Green on a regular basis we were promised new trains in 2014 now we have wait another decade just not good.

 

[rebmcr]

There is then the 09 which seems to be completely separate to the rest of the tube stock in style.

Look closely and you'll notice it's actually a mini S Stock.

 

[birchesgreen]

They are both Bombardier Movia family products.

 

[Mikey C]

Look closely and you'll notice it's actually a mini S Stock.

But surprisingly different. Apart from the lack of aircon and through carriages, the seats are shorter and less padded as well! Even the armrests are different

 

[bluegoblin7]

But surprisingly different. Apart from the lack of aircon and through carriages, the seats are shorter and less padded as well! Even the armrests are different

But they're a much smaller train, with a different spec. Interiors are largely cosmetic, 'under the hood' and in operational terms they are pretty much identical.

 

[Mikey C]

But they're a much smaller train, with a different spec. Interiors are largely cosmetic, 'under the hood' and in operational terms they are pretty much identical.

Wasn't the 1983 stock similar under the skin to the D78s?

 

[bluegoblin7]

Wasn't the 1983 stock similar under the skin to the D78s?

Very much so. Many of the stock from that era shared similarities (1972/C stock, 1973/D stock), but the D stock and 1983 stock were the most closely aligned, with near-identical bogies, traction motors and other functions - and, of course, the much-maligned single leaf doors.

 

[Met Driver]

I really want the 1973 tube stock replaced ASAP because it means that the Piccadilly line will serve Turnham Green on a regular basis we were promised new trains in 2014 now we have wait another decade just not good.

The trains are not the issue per se, but the signalling system. You could introduce new trains tomorrow, but without enhancing or replacing the signalling system there would still be insufficient line capacity through Turnham Green to allow Piccadilly line trains to call without causing significant congestion and late running.

 

[MatthewRead]

The trains are not the issue per se, but the signalling system. You could introduce new trains tomorrow, but without enhancing or replacing the signalling system there would still be insufficient line capacity through Turnham Green to allow Piccadilly line trains to call without causing significant congestion and late running.

They're just so frequent compared to the District line which provides such a poor service it seems that the Wimbledon Branch gets a lion share:-x

 

[LiftFan]

They're just so frequent compared to the District line which provides such a poor service it seems that the Wimbledon Branch gets a lion share:-x

You're lucky, where I come from we get a train every two hours in the off peak and one an hour in the peak. Makes it a huge pain in the arse for commuting by train...

 

[rebmcr]

They're just so frequent compared to the District line which provides such a poor service it seems that the Wimbledon Branch gets a lion share:-x

I have an irrational dislike for the Wimbledon branch, as I commute West Ham — Hammersmith.

 

[MatthewRead]

You're lucky, where I come from we get a train every two hours in the off peak and one an hour in the peak. Makes it a huge pain in the arse for commuting by train...

I live in a city where the service should be better but it isn't where do you live?