Euston closed (power outage) and other stories...

[rebmcr]

Yes - this is the reason - it's nothing to do with "need to know basis" or limiting info to passengers. Network Rail posted photos of the burning cables on Twitter pretty much live - hardly covering anything up...!

It's simply that the system and/or RTT's interpretation of it doesn't have a code for "caused by fire in lineside cabling completely wiping out major terminus station", hence just comes up as "unknown cause".

There is a code for 'due to being hit by a bird' interestingly enough, amongst many other things no doubt.

Perhaps they could add the code in.

That would cost a great amount of money, since all the systems that interact with that code would also have to be changed, including third-party information feeds, various different PIS suites' recorded voice lines, etc etc.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Yes - this is the reason - it's nothing to do with "need to know basis" or limiting info to passengers. Network Rail posted photos of the burning cables on Twitter pretty much live - hardly covering anything up...!

It's simply that the system and/or RTT's interpretation of it doesn't have a code for "caused by fire in lineside cabling completely wiping out major terminus station", hence just comes up as "unknown cause".

There is a code for 'due to being hit by a bird' interestingly enough, amongst many other things no doubt.

My comment wasn’t meant to mean the real reason is on a need to know basis. It was so what if RTT doesn’t show the real reason? The important thing is to inform the people travelling on the WCML at the time not rail enthusiasts sitting at home, and if Glasgow Central is anything to go by passengers were informed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Looks like the revised estimate for LOL services resuming has gone from mid afternoon yesterday to mid afternoon Sunday!

It's gone out to "until further notice" on NRE now.

Network Rail are working to fix the cable, but there is no current estimate as to when the line will reopen

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/today.aspx

 

[broadgage]

IIRC, at Euston there is a high level walkway around the concourse, not far below the roof, intended for maintenance purposes.

Could not a generator have been hired and placed outdoors, and cables run around this high level walkway to supply temporary lighting.
A dozen high powered floodlights directed down onto the concourse should be enough. Or some long strings of building site festoon lighting. A hundred or so lamps each of 100 watts would have helped.

 

[trainophile]

My comment wasn’t meant to mean the real reason is on a need to know basis. It was so what if RTT doesn’t show the real reason? The important thing is to inform the people travelling on the WCML at the time not rail enthusiasts sitting at home, and if Glasgow Central is anything to go by passengers were informed.

I wasn't too bothered about being told the reason in detail, and anyway there was enough TV coverage to not be in any puzzlement. However my problem was (along with everyone else similarly placed) not knowing whether trains would be running on Thursday.

On Wednesday evening I checked to see whether an extra night was available at the place I was staying, but (according to booking.com) I missed the last room by an hour :roll: . Not willing to pay about £120 for a different hotel, I then lay half awake most of the night with the TV on, waiting for some definitive news. The reason was that if need be I would have made my way to Paddington and gone elsewhere, rather than back to Liverpool.

In the event all was well, except I was completely "cream crackered" all day Thursday, and could hardly keep my eyes open. But they obviously couldn't tell us whether trains would run or not until they were pretty certain themselves.

We passengers are never satisfied are we?

 

[broadgage]

This sort of thing.https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SDFLES.html?ad_position=1o2&source=adwords&ad_id=45425533757&placement=&kw=&network=g&matchtype=&ad_type=pla&product_id=SDFLES&product_partition_id=174056390467&test=finalurl_v2&gclid=CP3twoKattMCFeUp0wodigkLew

33 lamps, fit 100 watt lamps and a 240 volt 16 amp plug (no need for 110 volt indoors and out of reach) Total loading per festoon of 3.3KW.
6 such festoons should be ample and could be powered from a 3 phase 20KW generator, or a temporary mains supply.

 

[BestWestern]

IIRC, at Euston there is a high level walkway around the concourse, not far below the roof, intended for maintenance purposes.

Could not a generator have been hired and placed outdoors, and cables run around this high level walkway to supply temporary lighting.
A dozen high powered floodlights directed down onto the concourse should be enough. Or some long strings of building site festoon lighting. A hundred or so lamps each of 100 watts would have helped.

Again though, it's all the other areas. The ramps down onto the platforms, and the platforms themselves, wouldn't benefit massively even from decent quality lighting on the main concourse. To cover the full area, you'd need an awful lot of generators and an awful lot of lights. That in turn means a lot of exhaust and a lot of heavy duty cabling. It'd be a sizeable exercise which would take a long time to set up, and would then present all manner of safety issues. And, of course, it wouldn't have been risk assessed!

 

[Crossover]

IIRC, at Euston there is a high level walkway around the concourse, not far below the roof, intended for maintenance purposes.

Could not a generator have been hired and placed outdoors, and cables run around this high level walkway to supply temporary lighting.
A dozen high powered floodlights directed down onto the concourse should be enough. Or some long strings of building site festoon lighting. A hundred or so lamps each of 100 watts would have helped.

I doubt you could just rig something up like that on the hoof without jumping through hoops to get it authorised. Going from what I know of H&S, I imagine there would be RAMS (Risk Assessment and Method Statement) to go through, requirement of a PTW (Permit To Work) etc. I can't imagine that you could rig anything like that without having the place empty save something should be dropped and fall onto someone (part of the RAMS/PTW to be fair)

That's before working out how much effect it will have when the lights are however many feet above the ground mostly illuminating the "sky"

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Should all major stations have backup generator?

 

[broadgage]

Should all major stations have backup generator?

Yes. All major London terminals, the more important termini outside London, and a FEW of the other busiest stations.
It would be unrealistic to equip every station in the country, but say the most important 100 stations, yes.

An exception could be made for those stations that have duplicated grid supplies, with those supplies being obtained from two "electrically distant" sources such that even a major fault wont affect both.
Any such duplicated supplies should be regularly tested, not only to confirm functionality, but more importantly to confirm that the station can function with only one supply present.

Remember that Euston HAD two supplies, but on failure of the principle supply it was found that the standby or secondary supply was not sufficient.

 

[Parham Wood]

Thanks for all the comments on generators. A permanent generator installation would have proper exhaust venting. They can be situated at points to make this more easily achievable. So I do not see this as an issue. The number required to run essential station systems may prove excessive (I have not done a calculation). If the initial electrical design did not include for them it would be harder to build them in later for essential circuits. That said closing a station for the length of time it was must have cost a fortune both in penatly payments and hidden costs to business and the public.

I am a bit baffled by the posts on the dual supplies that were available. My interpretation is that it was not a fully resilient system but that only part of the power required could be met by the supply that was left. If this is true then the arrangement needs reviewing. Of course power equipment could have been damaged at the station preventing full station power but there was no mention of this by anyone as far as I can tell.

Guildford station is in the open not like the fully covered areas of Euston. Guildford could have benefitted from the ambient light from the surrounding street lighting (assuming it was not affected) or just because it was able to take advantage of what natural light was available.

I would be interested to know if on the platforms how much light the trains provided. Was it enough to light the platform so you could see where you were going. I accept the walkways up to the platforms may have been darker. Of course in the war many stations had no lighting at all or very low level lighting. Obviously we are all wimps today

 

[Joe D]

Electrical fire in signalling cables, looks like theres some dry brush on top.

Several years of vegetation growth were cleared all along WCML in London over the winter. Lots of buddleia and the like was shredded and the chippings just left on the lineside. In Queen's Park I watched them just spray it all over the lineside cabinets.

<prods the Railforums speculation machine and runs>

 

[Elecman]

There are 2 independent DNO supplies at Euston as well as the 11 KV traction derived supply from Acton ( and the smaller normally unused supply via Camden as being used at present) but they are not sized to run the entire station merely to provide the 25% supply necessary for evacuation/smoke venting. The size of supply required for full operation of Euston is several megawatts, so would be uneconomic to provide 2 of these size of supplies for a just in case scenario (N+1) there has also been a problem with one of the 2 main transformers at Euston. There is provision for connecting a standby generator in the undercroft at Euston but again there is an issue of hiring/providing a suitably sized back up generator at short notice. Most people would have considered 2 independently routed supplies to have been more than adequate. The future post HS2 is for new large supplies to be installed covering both stations.

 

[Parham Wood]

There are 2 independent DNO supplies at Euston as well as the 11 KV traction derived supply from Acton ( and the smaller normally unused supply via Camden as being used at present) but they are not sized to run the entire station merely to provide the 25% supply necessary for evacuation/smoke venting. The size of supply required for full operation of Euston is several megawatts, so would be uneconomic to provide 2 of these size of supplies for a just in case scenario (N+1) there has also been a problem with one of the 2 main transformers at Euston. There is provision for connecting a standby generator in the undercroft at Euston but again there is an issue of hiring/providing a suitably sized back up generator at short notice. Most people would have considered 2 independently routed supplies to have been more than adequate. The future post HS2 is for new large supplies to be installed covering both stations.

Thanks for the response but I am still confused. Will each DNO supply run the station on its own? If so why was there a problem this time- I assume they are independently routed? (Re-reading your post seems to imply both supplies are needed to run the station). Is there a problem with one of the transformers at Euston or is this an example - it is not clear from your response? IMO there should be two independent supplies that can fully run the station or at least such that one alone can provide enough power to enable the station to function. Are the DNO supplies truly independent or are they part of the national grid/local distribution and the independent bit comes from the fact that the power is bought from different suppliers. In which case they are not independent and both could suffer from a grid outage.

I appreciate it is a cost decision whether generators are worth it. Generators up to at least 15MW are available so capacity is not a problem. I am talking permanent not brought in ones. As it has only happened once in a long time I can see the argument against, but I have yet to be convinced about the reliability and true independence of DNO supplies.

 

[Parham Wood]

There are 2 independent DNO supplies at Euston as well as the 11 KV traction derived supply from Acton ( and the smaller normally unused supply via Camden as being used at present) but they are not sized to run the entire station merely to provide the 25% supply necessary for evacuation/smoke venting. The size of supply required for full operation of Euston is several megawatts, so would be uneconomic to provide 2 of these size of supplies for a just in case scenario (N+1) there has also been a problem with one of the 2 main transformers at Euston. There is provision for connecting a standby generator in the undercroft at Euston but again there is an issue of hiring/providing a suitably sized back up generator at short notice. Most people would have considered 2 independently routed supplies to have been more than adequate. The future post HS2 is for new large supplies to be installed covering both stations.

Thanks for the response but I am still confused. Will each DNO supply run the station on its own? If so why was there a problem this time- I assume they are independently routed? (Re-reading your post seems to imply both supplies are needed to run the station). Is there a problem with one of the transformers at Euston or is this an example - it is not clear from your response? IMO there should be two independent supplies that can fully run the station or at least such that one alone can provide enough power to enable the station to function. Are the DNO supplies truly independent or are they part of the national grid/local distribution and the independent bit comes from the fact that the power is bought from different suppliers. In which case they are not independent and both could suffer from a grid outage.

I appreciate it is a cost decision whether generators are worth it. Generators up to at least 15MW are available so capacity is not a problem. I am talking permanent not brought in ones. As it has only happened once in a long time I can see the argument against, but I have yet to be convinced about the reliability and true independence of DNO supplies.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Yes. All major London terminals, the more important termini outside London, and a FEW of the other busiest stations.
It would be unrealistic to equip every station in the country, but say the most important 100 stations, yes.

An exception could be made for those stations that have duplicated grid supplies, with those supplies being obtained from two "electrically distant" sources such that even a major fault wont affect both.
Any such duplicated supplies should be regularly tested, not only to confirm functionality, but more importantly to confirm that the station can function with only one supply present.

Remember that Euston HAD two supplies, but on failure of the principle supply it was found that the standby or secondary supply was not sufficient.

For the rest of the stations maybe they could have feeds from two different local power grids/circuits, then if the primary fails they could switch to the secondary until the primary becomes available again

 

[Elecman]

Nearly all the major stations do have 2 or more supplies that are ussually independently routes but they are not ussually big enough in themselves to run the entire station. Euston unusually as you now know has 2 independent 11 KV Network Rail feeds from separate 11KV traction supplies and 2 separate DNO supplies.

The ROCS have 2 independent DNO supplies each capable of supporting the ROC independently as well as onsite Standby Generators and large UPS systems, this however is very very expensive to provide and maintain.

 

[Elecman]

However it is very difficult for a DNO to provide COMPlETELY independent derived and routed supplies to a single building, as by definition you have to come from 2 different substations ( that will probably share the same Primary substation supply ) or 2 separately routed and independent supplies from 2 different PRIMARY substations.

 

[Nym]

This sort of thing.https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SDFLES.html?ad_position=1o2&source=adwords&ad_id=45425533757&placement=&kw=&network=g&matchtype=&ad_type=pla&product_id=SDFLES&product_partition_id=174056390467&test=finalurl_v2&gclid=CP3twoKattMCFeUp0wodigkLew

33 lamps, fit 100 watt lamps and a 240 volt 16 amp plug (no need for 110 volt indoors and out of reach) Total loading per festoon of 3.3KW.
6 such festoons should be ample and could be powered from a 3 phase 20KW generator, or a temporary mains supply.

And what would you do about the horrific power factor of LED lighting that would actually quarter that capacity? Generators running only LED lighting or predominantly LED lighting, like any other poor quality power factor device, without correction, is a bad idea. The kW number line up, but the kVA (what the generator is actually rated for) numbers, very much do not.

Thanks for the response but I am still confused. Will each DNO supply run the station on its own? If so why was there a problem this time- I assume they are independently routed? (Re-reading your post seems to imply both supplies are needed to run the station). Is there a problem with one of the transformers at Euston or is this an example - it is not clear from your response? IMO there should be two independent supplies that can fully run the station or at least such that one alone can provide enough power to enable the station to function. Are the DNO supplies truly independent or are they part of the national grid/local distribution and the independent bit comes from the fact that the power is bought from different suppliers. In which case they are not independent and both could suffer from a grid outage.

I appreciate it is a cost decision whether generators are worth it. Generators up to at least 15MW are available so capacity is not a problem. I am talking permanent not brought in ones. As it has only happened once in a long time I can see the argument against, but I have yet to be convinced about the reliability and true independence of DNO supplies.

The DNO supply is not designed to run the station, it is there to run sufficient lighting and ventilation to allow the station to be safely evacuated. This can be configured such that DNO is not normally used and only cuts in should main supply be lost. However, it is more usual that the loads required for evacuation are always connected to the DNO so that should the DNO supply be lost it is self evident by a loss of 25% of the lighting, not everyone is an eagle eye on the panels...

I strongly suspect it's unlikely, that for a station the size of Euston, that the DNO supplies operate in N+1, I'd say it's more likely that each end of the station is fed independently, and that some form of bus coupler is available, but it is not used because the DNO simply can't support that kind of load.

In the Euston area, you'll struggle to even get anything more than a 100A 3p DNO supply in nowadays, there simply isn't the capacity, if it where anything more than a 400A supply I'd be very surprised.

 

[infobleep]

Thanks for all the comments on generators. A permanent generator installation would have proper exhaust venting. They can be situated at points to make this more easily achievable. So I do not see this as an issue. The number required to run essential station systems may prove excessive (I have not done a calculation). If the initial electrical design did not include for them it would be harder to build them in later for essential circuits. That said closing a station for the length of time it was must have cost a fortune both in penatly payments and hidden costs to business and the public.

I am a bit baffled by the posts on the dual supplies that were available. My interpretation is that it was not a fully resilient system but that only part of the power required could be met by the supply that was left. If this is true then the arrangement needs reviewing. Of course power equipment could have been damaged at the station preventing full station power but there was no mention of this by anyone as far as I can tell.

Guildford station is in the open not like the fully covered areas of Euston. Guildford could have benefitted from the ambient light from the surrounding street lighting (assuming it was not affected) or just because it was able to take advantage of what natural light was available.

I would be interested to know if on the platforms how much light the trains provided. Was it enough to light the platform so you could see where you were going. I accept the walkways up to the platforms may have been darker. Of course in the war many stations had no lighting at all or very low level lighting. Obviously we are all wimps today

Guildford wouldn't be as dark as Euston but the footbridge certainly was gloomy and the subway, which was probably closed, would be very dark.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Perhaps they could add the code in.

So yesterday how did the people leaving or working in Bushy and Harrow get into Euston? Via Harrow on the Hill.

The DC lines were down and the Tring stoppers cancelled. As usual London Midland didn't add in Harrow and Bushy as extra stops to other services, only doing Apsly and King Langley. Normally one might say well they can get the Overground but the Overground wasn't running.

Actually Overground was running between Harrow and Wealdstone and Watford Junction so anyone from Harrow or Bushey could simply get it to Watford for a train into Euston.

 

[broadgage]

RE post #169 and the poor power factor of some LED lamps, I made no suggestion to use LED lamps.
For temporary or short term use I was presuming old fashioned incandescent bulbs. Cheap and simple.
33 lamps per festoon each 100 watts. 3.3KW per festoon. 6 festoons per 20KW generator. Or a larger generator to supply other loads also.

 

[rebmcr]

There is provision for connecting a standby generator in the undercroft at Euston but again there is an issue of hiring/providing a suitably sized back up generator at short notice.

Run some 57s up from Wembley, park them in the carriage sidings, and plug a great big cable in!

 

[Class 170101]

Actually Overground was running between Harrow and Wealdstone and Watford Junction so anyone from Harrow or Bushey could simply get it to Watford for a train into Euston.

Or how about via Paddington on the Bakerloo line and then Circle Line to Euston Square? This route was open on Friday after the fire?

 

[LAX54]

RE post #169 and the poor power factor of some LED lamps, I made no suggestion to use LED lamps.
For temporary or short term use I was presuming old fashioned incandescent bulbs. Cheap and simple.
33 lamps per festoon each 100 watts. 3.3KW per festoon. 6 festoons per 20KW generator. Or a larger generator to supply other loads also.

Bearing in mind the amount of damage, to have Euston Stn power back up and running by 2200 by being re-routed from Anglia was a good response, and I dont think ordering gens and stringing up lights would have been done any quicker, in fact more than likely would have taken longer !
(likewise a full WCML service the next day, by rerouting power supplies from Anglia)

 

[endecotp]

And what would you do about the horrific power factor of LED lighting that would actually quarter that capacity?

Power Factor Correction is now mature technology; practically every PC power supply, for example, now has it.

 

[QueensCurve]

Yes. All major London terminals, the more important termini outside London, and a FEW of the other busiest stations.

Yes, not just termini, but major interchanges, eg Crewe, Preston ,etc.

Remember that Euston HAD two supplies, but on failure of the principle supply it was found that the standby or secondary supply was not sufficient.

Might it be possible for some lights to be supplied by the "A" supply and others by the "B" supply so that, in the event of one supply failing, the lights fed by the other would continue?

 

[QueensCurve]

The size of supply required for full operation of Euston is several megawatts, so would be uneconomic to provide 2 of these size of supplies for a just in case scenario (N+1) there has also been a problem with one of the 2 main transformers at Euston.

Do I read this correctly that Euston was operating with a system known to be degraded in the run up to this?

 

[GaryMcEwan]

In relation to the DNO side of things. Who actually maintains the electric supplies? Is it UK Power Networks seeing as they are the DNO for London and the South East or do Network Rail have a separate DNO who does the work for them?

I travelled back up from London on Thursday afternoon and expected the station concourse to be jam packed with people and the trains to be full, but the 1343 from Euston back up to Glasgow was relatively quiet even though TOC's were allowing tickets that should have been used on the Wednesday.

 

[Far north 37]

all gates were still down this afternoon so incoming passengers unable to touch out with oyster or contactless imagine thismust be causing lots of problems for people